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12 volt starting conversion on a 1997 24 valve manual 80 series LandCruiser

....I want to know if rather than running a wire from the now passenger side starter battery all the way across the radiator to power theses 4 wires can i connect them to the alternator positive from the starter battery as its right there and will make for a neater setup?
Not sure what this 'alternator positive' is that you refer to?

Those wires can be connected to either battery, I'm assuming your drivers side battery is now your leisure battery?

If connected to the passenger side (starter) battery, you may find if your 80 is not used for a few weeks it may drain the starter battery enough to stop it cranking the motor as there is a very small continuous drain.
If connected to your leisure (drivers side) battery that won't be an issue.

Having said that, even if you flatten the main starter battery, you can jump it off the secondary battery.
 
Paul

Can you advise what the drain is from, from those 4 wires?

The large feed from the alternator is connected to the starter battery so it can charge it when running, i want to connect those 4 wires to that. My concern is that to start those 4 wires will pull a charge from the battery but once started current will flow the other direction from the alternator to the battery so is what i have planned a good or bad idea.
 
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That shouldn't be a problem and should work. If that's the way you want to go I would run a wire from the alternator to that junction box in your photo and then connect the fusible links there.

I just used the original cable that ran across the radiator from the passenger side and connected it up to the passenger side battery.
 
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It just means running another cable across for those fusible links when there is a perfectly good cable running from the alternator to the starter battery already. Only trying to keep it tidy but not running yet another cable across.
 
:thumbup:
Sounds like a good plan to me, and keeps things tidy.

But, as I said above, run a wire off the alternator to connect them to...... I wouldn't want all those 'hanging' off the alternator.
 
OK thanks, do you know what draws current from those fusible links when not in use?
 
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Sorry no, I'm not sure what is causing the drain. It may only be on my 80, try yours and see.
If yours is a daily driver you will be fine, it takes almost a month to drop the battery enough for it not to start.
It's not a real problem, if it bothered me that much I would just connect them to the drivers side battery.
 
The fusible links supply things like central locking electronics, alarm system, clock and so forth. This is known as 'parasitic draw', and should not be an issue on healthy batteries. The classic I see is the youngster with the big amp in the boot for his stereo, 'his mate' told him not to power the amp switch on from the ignition, 'better to be powered up ready for all the sounds dude!' Never heard a Spaniard talk like that but it runs through my mind as the owner is still scratching his head. Of course it sucks the life out of the battery.

So back to your car, Paul is right, the area between the rear of the alternator is not particularly spacious, there are already issues with the oval plug wiring giving issues on 80's. I would not compound that by having the extra wires there. As you are in 'wiring mode' then either renew the fusible links or swap them for fuses and if you do not want them on the battery then get a 'bus bar' post and fit them to that. The FL's are becoming a regular failure area in the 80's due to age and corrosion, open the little box the actual links are in and check it for corrosion.

I am guessing you have run the main charging cable to the starter battery on the passenger side? I too did this a few years back when doing my 12v conversion, it seemed right at the time but experience IMO dictates it is the wrong thing to do assuming you have a VSR?

My original thinking was to prioritise the charging to the starter battery, and yes it worked fine but certain things were on my mind and reminding me as to why it was not such a good idea.

The first problem is starting up, you take some juice from the PS battery, the alternator will spend some seconds (or longer) to bring that battery voltage up to force the VSR to 'bring in' the DS battery, all this is fine but, if it at night you will find that depending on the starter battery voltage and the VSR's timer, it means everything on the DS battery has only what is left in after you have had the fridge on or some other power drain, in other words you have no or very poor lights, the dashboard gauges will not work properly, these get power from the FL's mentioned earlier. To be fair this is not a major headache, perhaps a minutes delay and your starting to get juice again from the alternator, and everything perks up and all is good but worthy of note.

The other thought that occurred to me is alternator failure, whilst very rare, sometimes the failure mode is not always 'no charge', the other trick they perform is for a diode to fail and then suck the life out of your starter battery. Having a VSR is good, if this was the OE 24v install you would now have two flat batteries and not just the one. If you have a decent VSR you can force it to jump start to the starter battery using the DS, I am sure you know this anyway, but you can then disconnect the VSR and retain engine running and electrics from the power in the DS battery, keep non essential electrical items off, and drive a long way to a garage or even home, this is why I kept the starter battery completely isolated from any parasitic drain including the alternator.

There is a third item but it is only an issue if the cables between the VSR and the two batteries is not heavy enough to ensure no resistance, I am not talking about carrying over the amperage for starting, but the actual resistance to voltage drop, if there is resistance then the DS battery (with all the vehicle electrics) will not see the full voltage from the alternator (battery sensed), so will take longer to recharge, and other items (lights for example) will not be as bright as they could be, a niggle really and sorted by using a heavy enough cable if you haven't already.


regards

Dave
 
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Daves post above makes pretty good sense. It also demonstrates why the cable from the alternator is best left alone (Warren). I'm still not sure where you plan to connect your four cables to it but whichever battery it is connected to (as Dave's post), it is best to be able to disconnect it if you need to and have it fused as/if required.

On Dave's choice of which battery gets charge first, it really doesn't matter apart from Daves observations, whether the starter battery gets charge first (conventionally) or whether the leisure battery gets it assuming it's a lead acid one. The only thing would be where the VSR takes its volt sensing from which should always be the battery the alternator is connected to. In other words the VSR needs to be round the right way.

Warren, in short, it's often better to provide a cable and fusebox, however I would need a diagram to know what you intend with the alternator wiring. What I think you're suggesting is probably ok but needs a look to make sure the cable is hefty enough.
Current drawn is from those items stated and should be in the milliamperes range. I think Chris had a thread about 'constant parasitic drain' which gave the standard (quiescent) current in mA. Though his was worse due to a previous audio install.
 
When I did mine, I left the fusible links connected to the +ve post of the Driver side battery. Yes there is a small parasitic drain there.

I ran the charging cable from the main recipient (cranking) battery across the rad to the now aux battery. For a split I used the Nat Luna unit. Now this works on a timer and not a VSR. All seemed good until a rainy Easier weekend in the Lakes when I set off with wipers, fan, lights etc all going. It was 5 mins before the Luna unit kicked in to give me some juice to the aux battery. Until then, it was a struggle. The wipers were dragging across the screen.

So, I pulled the control unit for the Luna and replaced it with a decent VSR but left the big solenoid can in place, using the VSR solely to trigger the solenoid without the charging current going through it. This cuts in almost immediately. As the alternator kicks straight in with 14.5, the VSR clicks in and fires the charge solenoid. With the 80 starting so easily and there being no other drains on the cranking battery, it barely need a charge after one starting.
 
The only thing would be where the VSR takes its volt sensing from which should always be the battery the alternator is connected to. In other words the VSR needs to be round the right way.

Thanks for adding that paragraph in SC, when I swapped my charging cable I did not swap the VSR cable as it makes no odds to my install. I use a dual sense VSR which can 'see' a rise in either battery and then couple them up, I did this as I also use solar to charge as well. I have no idea what Warren was using but should have thought about that, nice one. :clap:

One thing I did forget was the cable for alternator output sensing, IIRC with the OE battery setup there is a cable to monitor voltage at the battery furthest from the alternator, this allows for voltage drop across the cables. With it connected to the battery that was not 'engaged' with the VSR the alternator voltage regulator assumed the battery was very low and ramped the voltage up around 18 volts! The red 'no charge' lights up and the volt meter is pegged towards the top. I had swapped the cables 'when I had ten minutes', so had a problem but never had the time to sort it out. I had asked around here and on MUD but no one had seen this before. It made no sense (pun not intended), until I realised the alternator regulator is 'voltage sensed' and not 'machine sensed', moving the cable two inches to the other VSR terminal and all was well. I know this adds a little complication to the thread that may or may not affect an install, but given the title I thought it was pertinent information.

I ran the charging cable from the main recipient (cranking) battery across the rad to the now aux battery. For a split I used the Nat Luna unit. Now this works on a timer and not a VSR. All seemed good until a rainy Easier weekend in the Lakes when I set off with wipers, fan, lights etc all going. It was 5 mins before the Luna unit kicked in to give me some juice to the aux battery. Until then, it was a struggle. The wipers were dragging across the screen.

Yep, pretty much why I changed my wiring around Chris, it is good that these things are brought to light in threads such as this, it will help others in the future. I do recall the drain you had, I too had a minor problem, it turned out to be a little box in the right hand rear wing marked 'Motorola' I am thinking perhaps phone Ariel amplifier?

regards

Dave
 
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Good point on the volt sense wire. I didn't mention it as I think it's one of those with a fusible link but it does connect directly to the battery being charged. I'm not sure where the volt sense appears in a standard setup. My guess would be on the change over relay if as you say it goes to the furthest battery, but it is just a guess.
 
Yes, it was on the changeover relay IIRC, it was around 5 years back so the grey matter has had time to throw it out.

regards

Dave
 
There are 2 small cables on the further battery from the alternator one was on the changeover relay and forms part of the same cable run as the change over relay trigger with plug at the end the other is a green wire with small black box on it that is already on the positive terminal of the battery so assume it still needs to be there.
 
Dave - completely different vehicles fella. The stereo amp drain thing was the green 80. All gone. Never dropped a volt since. The silver one sits in storage week after week and the driver's side can drop a bit. Generally now I connect a trickle charger to it when it's parked up.
 
Ok so i am done with only 2 questions.

What should i do with the wires that came off the 24v solinoid. one was plugged into the solinoid and assume it was the trigger wire so can i just tape it off and the other was on +1 but not sure what it feeds but think its the change over relay???
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Dave - completely different vehicles fella. The stereo amp drain thing was the green 80. All gone. Never dropped a volt since. The silver one sits in storage week after week and the driver's side can drop a bit. Generally now I connect a trickle charger to it when it's parked up.

I did not know what vehicle it was Chris, I just seemed to recall you had an 80 with some parasitic drain.

Regards

Dave
 
Not with car at the mo Warren and memory from years back is naff, if I get time tomorrow I will pop the bonnet and have a look.

Regards

Dave
 
I did Dave. Just couldn't find it
Basically it was a charger trying to charge a long dead battery in the rear quarter
 
Bit of a thread resurrection!

I am going to do this in the next few weeks.

Instead of using the PS battery to start, I want to use the DS. Am I right in thinking this can be done simply by using the +ve cable from the DS battery and relocating it from the switchover relay to the junction box and then sorting the engine earth, jumper cable and removing the unneeded bits? Is the existing DS cable of sufficient rating?

The reason I want to use the DS battery to start, is because I want to modify the PS battery tray to hold 2 leisure batteries.
 
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