Dodgy oil? This could be expensive.....

[Roger]

The last playday of the year could have cost dear!................

Normal playday in the main, follow my leader and all that, started to get a little challenging and pushing each other harder, I ended up in the water - up over the bonnet, turns out it was also mud 3/4 up the 37" tyres - lockers in and making slow progress out but needed a lot of to and for shunting with revs around 2500 to get suitable momentum. Momentum got harder as the car filled with water but it only got as deep as the stereo - it seems to have survived electrically - need six months for the terminals to corrode!!

After about 5 mins in I noticed the motor didn't sound right - It had stopped charging almost straight away in the water but that was just the alternator being drowned - the worrying thing was the 1/4 oil pressure reading and only going to just under half when revved - normally I have had good oil pressure with 3/4 reading on the same revs. So a full recovery situation.

Got it onto hard-standing and there was a definitive bottom end knock. So obviously it was turned off, checked the oil and it was ALL the way up the dipstick and fully aerated (looked like when you whisk egg whites) - so dragged it back to the camp site, had a beer or 3 and rechecked - the oil had settled to normal level and no sign of water ingress. Started it back up, no knocking but only 1/4 oil pressure (it never used to go below 1/2 on tick-over).

A trip to Halfords to buy some oil - drained and replenished with mineral 15w 40, much better - normal sounding engine and pressure readings probably 1/8 below what they normally where. Then it got warm and the knocking came back - so there is something not right - engine off. It has only been ran since to get it on and off a mates trailer.

So its fingers crossed that this has just knocked out the BEBs. Ive ordered new ACL from Karl Webster, Ive ordered a set of mains as well (in case its coming out) - the hope being Ive not scored the crank of course.

Just doing my homework on oil pump internals (it looks like they can be changed with the front cover off?).

Ive been in much worse situations than this with more heat and abuse to the engine. The only thing "we" can put it down to is the new oil I have put in (Westway Oils 15w40 Semi with genuine Toyota filter) has just failed, perhaps somehow the angle I was at allowed the crank to smash the oil and it aerated?

Thoughts welcomed!

EDIT: The oil was probably 200 miles old at best with a genuine OEM filter).

 

[clivehorridge]

I've always been under the impression that the mains provide most of the resistance generating oil pressure readings, maybe one or more of the mains have let go.

The aeration syndrome is puzzling though...

Edit: Sorry, just to add, what a bummer, so close to Christmas too. Bad news Roger, hope you can get it sorted without too much bother..

 

[Roger]

Thats the next challenge Clive - as much as I read its generally considered you cant change the mains in situ due to the cradle - Ive done them before on Rover v8's in situ and the Max Ellery hand book says it can be done on the 1hdt - I will investigate at the time and see it it can be winged!

 

[Dave2000]

Anyone who has followed my thread on Mud knows I fitted an oil pressure warning LIGHT and BUZZER. I had already calibrated the stock gauge to represent the oil pressure shown whilst using a temporary master oil pressure gauge.

I have found that if you are at acute angles and driving with some enthusiasm, the oil pressure buzzer and light would come on, we are talking 1 or perhaps 2 seconds? The light and buzzer are activated by an adjustable pressure sensor and set at 20 psi. So, I can confirm that even when the oil level is correct it is possible to get oil pressure to fall to 20 psi (or perhaps lower?) if the circumstances are right.

I have never managed to activate the 20 or lower warning regardless how I drive on the road but, pointing down hill and braking hard to make a turn will bring up the light and sound the buzzer but note, this is only when pushing very hard indeed.

Why has this not been seen before I guess is because the stock 80 has no oil PRESSURE light and the gauge is very slow to react to sudden drops in pressure. Also, how many watch the oil pressure gauge when trying to extricate yourself from a situation? Some may have put a 'T' in the pressure line and a standard oil switch and that will be circa 5 psi? Given the 20 psi activation is on for such a short period of time, I doubt a 5 psi light would be activated.

What this does mean however is given the @Roger's driving conditions, it is possible the oil may have been overheating, made worse being aerated by cavitation in the sump via the crank. The result is the big end bearings will not have been getting the protection they needed?

Slightly off topic but the 12v is known for big end issues, so there may be a tentative link there, have yours been changed Roger?

regards

Dave

 

[Roger]

Interesting post Dave - I must read Mud more often, usually I only end up there after a google search.

Yes, I changed my BEB's about 6 years ago when I first got it with some from Milners - I didnt change the mains though. Up until last Sunday I was always pleased with the oil pressure, at 2300rpm and towing the caravan I would see just under 3/4 reading on the gauge. Idle when towing hot was about 1/3.

In road terms they have probably only done 18K - its has spent on average 2 days per month on 4x4 days such as trials or playdays and I have hit the loud pedal plenty at times - generally I keep on top of the maintenance and regular oil changes are done without question.

New Shells from Karl, New Mains and Assembly Lube arrived this week - hoping to make a start next week and get on it to see.

 

[frank rabbets]

Yes I think the oil has been getting very thin and slopping around in the sump causing the strainer to suck air an aerate the oil and wearing the big ends. I had the same on my 2.2E Audi Coupe racing someone around Bham. The buzzer would sound on long roundabouts because the oil was vertical in the sump.

I think we are both guilty of driving NOT in accordance with the owners handbook.

 

[Roger]

Yes I think the oil has been getting very thin and slopping around in the sump causing the strainer to suck air an aerate the oil and wearing the big ends.

Hmm - Never thought of the strainer sucking in the air - thats a good suggestion.

I think we are both guilty of driving NOT in accordance with the owners handbook.

 

[flint]

I suppose some sort of dry sump system would overcome this, but maybe overkill for general use.

 

[MarkW]

or a baffled sump maybe?

 

[Dave2000]

Interesting post Dave - I must read Mud more often, usually I only end up there after a google search.

New Shells from Karl, New Mains and Assembly Lube arrived this week - hoping to make a start next week and get on it to see.

You do know the engine may have to come out to do the mains Roger?

Re the dry sump and baffled comments.. Years ago I used to run a Rover V8 in a Ford Granada, to get the engine in the sump had to be cut to pieces and I lost some capacity. I made a windage tray from sheet steel, took ages but worked a treat, then baffled the pickup pipe. Never had any more issues.

Not saying the 80 needs this but given my points earlier, it might be something someone could incorporate into a rebuild when the time comes?

 

[Towpack]

Baffled sumps are commonplace on motorcycles due to their prodigious acceleration and varying lean angles. Many race engines also have dry sumps. It's just a way of guaranteeing positive oil feed irrespective of G forces or engine attitude.

 

[frank rabbets]

Also reduces centre of gravity. Back in the day you could thereby get the block and gearbox lower to the ground.

 

[Roger]

You do know the engine may have to come out to do the mains Roger?

Yes Dave, Ive done mains before plenty of times on other engines that have been in situ (mainly Rover V8) - will give this one my best shot, if it has to come out then Im going for a rebuild.

The research Ive done seems to point at its much easier to do the mains when the lump is out but according to the Max Ellery manual it can be done in situ - works been manic busy this week, hoping to get cracked on during boxing day! Will report back.

 

[Dave2000]

IIRC they can be doe in situ, but the work involved would normally dictate pulling the lump.

regards

Dave

 

[nathanrobo]

I've just rebuilt 100 series engine and getting to the mains, definitely meant getting the lump out.

The block splits into two with the mains encased between the two halves of block. The oil pump can be checked with a feeler gauge to confirm it's within tolerance. If you've swarf in the engine anywhere, doing a complete strip down and washing / blowing out all of the oilways will make sense.
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A mammoth job, but if you're a committed LC enthusiast - you know you're going to do it at some point.

The FSM has everything that you need from torque settings to diagrams. You just need a very clean working environment and a good engineering shop... oh and very deep pockets



You might find that the oil pump gear clearance is a little tight even vs. the tightest book settings - they are built for 1000,000 km! It's the pressure relief valve that can be overlooked and should be changed on a strip down.

 

[frank rabbets]

It's a split block and a mammoth job. If the crank journals are not worn perhaps just replace the B/E bearings. There is more of a point impact on the B/E bearings than the mains so starvation would show up quickly there. The oil pump and associated relief valve setting should well be able to cope with slightly worn mains.

Those Rover V8's are amazingly simple to work on in comparison.

 

[clivehorridge]

The gauge on the 80 series is pathetically indicative only. When my gauge dropped to zero I hoped it was electrical, so I replaced the sender and fitted a dial type gauge. I found this on MUD, but it's only a post not from Mr T:

"A new or rebuilt 1HZ will attain 80 psi at 2000 rpm, 34 psi is the minimum, 50-60 is a good average (for 140k). At idle it is only around 6-7 with 4 psi the min".

The dial type oil gauge returns 4 Bar (56 lb) at 2000 rpm cold, 3 Bar (42) at running temp with 390k km and new BEBs 20k km ago. At idle at running temp, I'm getting just under 1 Bar (maybe 10 lb).

It sounds ok, so I'm not going to worry about it.

I would imagine the 1HD to be the same.

 

[Roger]

Good info and guidance above, cheers.

Managed to get a couple of hours on it last night - swapped out shells 1 to 4, not terrifying news but enough for me to think I need to pull the engine and change the mains? - opinions welcomed:

Shells 1 to 4 - No1 (front of engine) to the right, right shell of each group being the top shell

Pot 3 Crank Journal - very slight score but generally all good - as were the 1, 2 and 4.

Do I risk the main bearings ? I really am swinging towards pulling the lump out and going for a TLC session.

 

[StarCruiser]

Two schools of though for me (and it is only my thoughts, only you can decide what you will be happy with).
1, the forces are half that on the big ends as there are two mains for each big end.
If the crank rotates freely and there is no perceptible movement beyond that of an oil gap up and down then there's a good chance all will be ok.
2, with the normal BEB problem, all other bearings are flooded with oil whereas yours is oil starvation, all bearings will be affected as the pressure has lowered. You can see they get worse the further away from the oil pump they get.

I think I'm with you on doing the mains as well. As to which way is easiest, I would be concerned about getting things, seals, crank etc. in the right place from below without pulling the engine.

 

[Roger]

I think I'm with you on doing the mains as well. As to which way is easiest, I would be concerned about getting things, seals, crank etc. in the right place from below without pulling the engine.

Agree, location of seals being a very valid point - decision made, lump out