Helping the NHS flounder.

Dave 2000 May 6, 2018

  1. Rob Cowell

    Rob Cowell Well-Known Member I am in wales

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    London is not a country. Those figures do not prove your assertion that we are a minority in our own country. Because we are not.

    More people = more resources. All the figures I have seen show immigrants as net contributors. So if there is a shortfall in funding either non-immigrants are the ones over consuming resources, or the collection and allocation of resources is being badly managed (not just by the current government, but by their predecessors). I believe it is predominantly the latter. That wouldn't improve if you removed immigrants, in fact the figures suggest it would get worse.

    You have observed two things. Poorer health provision. And increased immigration. But correlation is not causality. Spending per person on health care in the UK has increased slightly in the last few years [1], so we know resources have grown faster than the population. The more people = less to go round argument is easy to disprove.

    [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_total_health_expenditure_per_capita
     
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  2. Chas

    Chas Well-Known Member I am in england

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    If every immigrant , benefits scrounger were deported tomorrow , nothing would change? You really believe that?
    As an analogy, If a baker had 100 loaves in his shop and a crowd of 110 people came for bread, 10 would go without, but if of that original 110 people 10 were incomers who would have been deported then all would get their loaves, if you substitute NHS for baker you can see my point, or is that too simplistic for you, but then I'm a simple person.
    It makes no difference to me what colour, black, red or yellow, whatever, these incomers are, what does matter is the sheer number of them.
    I can see some don't agree with my views on this subject so I'm fighting a losing battle, this will be my last post on this thread.
     
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  3. Ian Rubie

    Ian Rubie Moderator I am in uk

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    Chas,

    I know you have said that will be your last post on the subject but the problem with your baker comparison is a lot of immigrants are fully integrated members of society who are employed and paying taxes. That means if they get kicked out of the country then there will be less tax income for the government or the baker will not have 100 loaves, he will only have 80. You cannot lump immigrants and benefits scroungers into the same pot. By all means kick out the scroungers but I think you will find you will be kicking out a lot of white Brits.
     
    Last edited: May 16, 2018
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  4. Shayne

    Shayne Well-Known Member Guru

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    We all agree there is a problem and unless we can look at it without being confrontational and without playing a point scoring game there can be no solution .

    What Chas describes is a feeling , an emotion if you like and that is a feeling of discontent - emotions are rarely rational and so we are leaving the EU because when we cannot trust anyone else we trust our own instinct .

    Capitalism runs in a cycle of boom to bust it and EU driven globalization is accelerating the cycle centralizing wealth at cost to the masses . They want to replace America as the world's custodian , the trouble is freedom is a right Americans are born with and sworn to defend in a way few other countries will ever understand .

    Whether the quote is factual or not i don't really care because the truth of it is unquestionable

    "Where the people fear the government you have tyranny. Where the government fears the people you have liberty"

    An American President lost his job for having a bit of nooky with the office staff , Junker could probably fuck an underage boy on the Queen of England's coffin centre stage televised throughout the world without consequence , and god only knows what the rest of them get away with because nobody even knows who they are .

    To suggest the EU is democratic is laughable , if you have enough money you can buy anyone and anything - ask Blair or Obama why they are so in love with the EU if you can find them on their privately owned islands where they enjoy complete absolution for their sins and live beyond the law .

    We need to put our own house in order if we are to cure the discontent , NHS , utilities , housing , transport , education , manufacturing , prospects , you name it and its failing miserably , we cant fix this while ruled from afar .

    I would say to Barnier - we are friends neighbours and allies so help us do this so all doors can remain open .

    Nobody cares about migrants when people are happy .

    Incidentally Trump is only tearing up deals signed for personal benefit so he can renegotiate in the interest of the country he represents - that's his job is it not .
     
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  5. Dave 2000

    Dave 2000 Well-Known Member Supporter I am in spain

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    Phew! Glad I have not had decent internet since I started this thread :icon-biggrin:.

    Whilst I accept that there are immigrants that contribute to taxes and so forth the problem is one of balance. Typical british family 2.4 kids...(yeh I know), but a typical shall we say Asian family immigrant or otherwise will expect to have 7 plus kids, it's no coincidence that family benefits are limited to 'x' number of kids, why was that rule brought in? There has to be balance, if dad works and pays taxes all well and good but, it does not offset his 7 kids adding workload to schools and other services.

    One thing people ask for is evidence, what evidence? The government hide the facts very well indeed, mention anything against anyone not white and your branded a racist, anything against immigration and you get called a biggot, all of a sudden your opinion is worthless and the request for evidence is buried.

    I use my own eyes, 40 years ago there was probably 20 non white kids in the school I attended, now it is all but reversed.

    More factual evidence, the amount of new houses built in the area I lived is just a handful such is the density of buildings however, the population has quadrupled, well hold on a moment how can that be, are all these extra people living on the streets? Of course not, a typical three bedroomed house now has nine occupants!

    And what of the two doctor's surgeries in the area coped quite comfortably for more years than I can remember, 25 years on they are overwhelmed, so they open a third, and then a clinic, and they are still overwhelmed and remember, the house count has not gone up!

    Many whites moved out of London, not just because of doctor's queues, the inability to find a place for a white child in a school, and for reasons that seem hard for many to grasp, and take this how you like, there is a VERY high percentage of Asians that have very different values to the typical white family. This varies from everyday habits like soap dodging to blocking sewers by flushing things that simply should not be there. How many people do you know that dispose of their old cocktoach ridden mattress out in the street?

    For balance, I have worked with people from many ethnic backgrounds, and found zero issues, I am certainly not racist either but it proves my point, they work!

    I say it as it is and certainly don't use the 'praise sandwich' so.........

    welcome to the real world!

    Regards

    Dave
     
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  6. Rob Cowell

    Rob Cowell Well-Known Member I am in wales

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    Who was that then? Not Clinton, he was impeached but acquitted.
     
  7. goodoldboy

    goodoldboy Well-Known Member

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    What are you trying to say about evidence? That it's hidden so we can make an argument or point of view & when challenged we don't have to provide any facts ? Its like putting holy water in the tank of your Landcruiser & then swearing it goes better ;-)
    Why would a government that's anti immigrant hide evidence that immigrants are harmful to the country?

    When I was about 10 or 11 I was waiting for the bus with some school mates a bloke came up to us & screamed "WHY DON'T YOU FUCK OFF BACK TO IRELAND"
    We all laughed thinking he was a nutter which seem to enrage him further.by this time he had proven that not all brits are white because his face was bright red.
    Some years later I worked out what was going on.At the time the IRA were murdering indiscriminately in an attempt to return sovereignty a little closer to home & our school uniforms marked us a Catholic.
    So as most Irish are Catholic = all Catholics are Irish & as we know all Irish are terrorists.
    My mum , her sister & brothers were economic migrants who came to to the UK to escape poverty & the socially backward society that was Ireland in the 60s & faced bigotry & hatred despite having the right to live & work in the UK.I suppose they were lucky that they didn't get attacked in the streets or fitted up for terrorism by bent coppers.Stupid , lazy drunken idiots who were breeding like rabbits when they weren't busy making bombs.packed into shitty housing paying extortionate rents because they chose to , not because of poverty or lack of decent housing.Their food was disgusting , they treated their women like dirt & their religion was full of reactionary ideas.
    That was racist then & it's racist now.
     
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  8. goodoldboy

    goodoldboy Well-Known Member

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  9. Shayne

    Shayne Well-Known Member Guru

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    There were consequences none the less because he is employed by the people , i suppose you support Juncker's drunken rhetoric do you , i'm quite sure if i wrote what i think about that twat i'd wind up in prison - its written into the EU's four freedoms dont you know :icon-rolleyes:

    I'm from the Isle of Man goodoldboy and i have sat drinking with IRA and UDF ex cons at the same time , it doesn't matter you see because they left the troubles behind and moved to a place with almost no unemployment , adequate housing and lots of pubs people can actually afford to drink in - life is good so who cares , though i do remember saying once or twice when too much beer leads to growling "shut up you clowns we are all Celts" which generally moves the argument on to who's round it is :lol:
     
  10. Rob Cowell

    Rob Cowell Well-Known Member I am in wales

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    I think Junker is a tit.

    I think Clinton is a bad example of people power, he served two full terms as President. A better example might be Jaques Santer who was forced to resign as European Commission President but awkwardly that doesn't fit what you want to believe.

    I completely agree with you that people only look for scapegoats when times are hard.

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    Last edited: May 17, 2018
  11. Rob Cowell

    Rob Cowell Well-Known Member I am in wales

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    No idea where the happy face comes from on that last post. I am happy, but I didn't feel an urgent need to explicitly share that.
     
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  12. Dave 2000

    Dave 2000 Well-Known Member Supporter I am in spain

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    I never truly understood the problems in Ireland, and find myself guilty of ignorrance. I do though fully understand people moving from country to country to escape poverty however, when in Rome do as Roman's do.

    I have known many Irish families and in fact had one just two doors away for 15 years, previous to that at another residence again by coincidence two doors away all members bar one were hard working good moral types, so I certainly do not tar everyone with the same brush.

    I cannot help my moral thinking, it was drummed into me by hardworking parents and has held good thus far for my soon to be 59 years. Unless you are sick, you get your arse out of bed and go to work and earn a living, not just get up to collect your benefits giro, unfortunately I am embarrased to say one of my sisters did not get the message! :icon-mad This seems to be the standard plan in life for millions of immigrants that have bypassed many countries to flock into the UK, why do hundreds (thousands?) sit on French borders waiting to get across the channel, why not get a job in France or perhaps here in Spain?

    During interviews with these potentials scroungers, the media never asks (or is not allowed to?) "why do you want to get to the UK?" In case the answer is "because of the benefit handouts, a house and free health service."

    Yes of course there are genuine cases wanting to work and earn a living, but once they get a wage the money goes out of the country to support families elsewhere, although many of them would also have to actually get additional benefits...to send home to to multiple wives!

    One thing I will say though, there is a huge number of the present generation (all creeds and colours) without a moral compass, and growing Velcro on their backs!

    Regards

    Dave
     
    Last edited: May 18, 2018
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  13. Rob Cowell

    Rob Cowell Well-Known Member I am in wales

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    Maybe for the same reason I don't work in France or Spain. Inability to speak French or Spanish. But thanks to our historic policy of socialising our language it's pretty well known around the world. Of course plenty of north African migrants speak French, but guess where they head for? Don't hear of loads of Nigeriens of Malians in Calais do you? I'm going to guess that Equitorial Guinean migrants probably head for Spain, but there's not many of them.

    Also perhaps some of the people in Calais know people in the UK. Head for where there is a support network. Plenty of Brits in Spain do the same thing don't they?
     
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  14. Paddler Ed

    Paddler Ed Well-Known Member I am in australia

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    I've avoided coming into this thread too often, but it's another one of those interesting ones...

    1) The "Western" country with some of the lowest immigration (due to xenophobia and legislation) is suffering from the lowest population growth and has been in and out of recession since the early 2000's. Anyone else know where?

    2) Most economies do not have enough replacement rate within their "own" population to sustain the needs of the older generations - children are economic inferior goods... as incomes increase, we consume less of them. Therefore, they need the migrant intake to ensure there is a growing population. This can be seen in the drop in number of children per person, as well as the later age that people have children now.

    3) Medicine is getting better, so people live longer... but the pharma companies are making it more expensive to recoup costs (also ensuring that things remain under patent for longer, and therefore making them more money)

    4) Economies are measured on their economic growth. However, there are stagnating wages, taxes disappearing off shore (have a look at how much Google etc avoid paying... in most countries that would solve the problems that are faced by the governments) and many other things are going on that are limiting this growth.

    5) Migrant's will gravitate to the same communities - it's where the support is for them. But on the other hand, migrants also have a brilliant advantage, they are perfectly mobile when they first arrive and can therefore move to where ever the work is - most people have at least some form of ties to an area (how many have moved to somewhere where they knew noone?) If you earn more somewhere else, you'll move to that place right? All those moving around Europe, are basically doing the same... why do so many old people retire to the Spanish Coast(s)? Cheaper living again... Yes, the benefits are better in the UK, but you've (had) got the same opportunity to move within the EU to get more for your pension...

    6) English is the Lingua Franca world wide - the BBC World Service help this, but so does the American services/broadcasting. As Rob said, the French colonies are most likely to stop there, the British ones would head to the UK - ever wonder why there's so many Zimbabwean or South African's in the UK (and Australia...)

    7) Most of Europe and some other countries work on a reciprocal agreement, although no money changes hands, as it tends to balance out pretty well... ie a Brit in France is probably going to cost about the same as a French person in the UK.... however, if there isn't a cross flow, it's not to work.


    Right, I think that was everything...
     
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  15. goodoldboy

    goodoldboy Well-Known Member

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    "I certainly do not tar everyone with the same brush"
    Which is exactly what you have done throughout this thread making sweeping statements about immigrants being parasitic.
    You haven't posted any data or verifiable facts about your opinions & most of what you claim is untrue & has been debunked
    https://www.refugeecouncil.org.uk/policy_research/the_truth_about_asylum/facts_about_asylum_-_page_1

    https://fullfact.org/immigration/why-do-migrants-and-asylum-seekers-want-come-uk/
    You accept the argument that there's not enough money to fund the NHS without question forgetting the vast sums that were spent bailing out banks , on pointless foreign war & Trident.
    The numbers argument is the respectable face of racism ignoring the fact that most immigrants work & pay taxes & social security.

    https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...dd-tory-conference-speeches-a7346121.html?amp

    https://fullfact.org/immigration/how-immigrants-affect-public-finances/

    Then there is the idea that any savings would be fairly handed out & spent on health education housing etc.When in fact what successive governments have done over the last 40 years is to asset strip public services keep wages down & generally wreck anything decent that ordinary working people have a right to.
    The reason that unemployment is low & wages haven't risen for a decade is a draconian benefits system that has forced people in shitty jobs that don't pay enough to live on.This is why the biggest part of the benefits budget is spent on in work benefits.
    So who is to blame for this? Politicians ? Bankers , big corporations? No immigrants are to blame , ordinary people , like us who have fled war or poverty.
    So far this thread has continued without insults or name calling but if you made the same baseless claims about about anything to do with Landcruisers you would at least be ridiculed.
     
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  16. Shayne

    Shayne Well-Known Member Guru

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    It beggar's believe Dave that i have encountered many times Brits facing the moral dilemma "I would actually have more money if i didn't work" . Buy to let mortgages and fixed minimum wage , a lack of social housing (for which they are at the back of the queue) and i'm sure many other contributing factors have them trapped in a viscous circle whereby if they miss a days work they have to borrow money for bus fair so they can get to work next week .

    While at the same time i know a Polish guy that came here 10 years ago and now owns a house (he rents out) and a flat which is his marital home (for benefits purposes) , his Polish girlfriend can't officially live with him because it wouldn't be cost effective given he has taught her how to milk the system in the same way . What really sickens me is he will get ample official prior warning if he needs to fly his Romanian wife and 3 kids over for a few days occasionally (for provenance) , I'd not be surprised at all if he can claim the airfare back from the benefits office .

    Then there's a good friend of mine who works 7 days a week 7am to 6pm (if there's no overtime on offer) to boost his ex girlfriends budget for recreational drugs , he's a single man so he can't get social housing or any help at all while his drug addict ex doesn't work and gets everything for free . He dotes on his daughter but has no rights as a father and so he just accepts with a shrug he is to be a drug addicts paypig until his daughter because an adult in her own right .

    There's a clear winner in the above cases but all three of the above are simply victims of a broken system .


    Must admit Rob that i'd never heard of the guy but a quick google say he and all his minions having been publicly outed as unassailable dictators simply surrendered their official titles and continued their careers behind closed doors .
     
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  17. chadr

    chadr Well-Known Member I am in england

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    I'm not going to comment but will leave a few TED talks from the wonderful Hans Rosling, whilst not directly related, may help throw some light into those dark corners.

    <iframe width="640" height="390" src="" frameborder="0" allow="autoplay; encrypted-media" allowfullscreen></iframe>

    <iframe width="640" height="390" src="" frameborder="0" allow="autoplay; encrypted-media" allowfullscreen></iframe>

    <iframe width="640" height="390" src="" frameborder="0" allow="autoplay; encrypted-media" allowfullscreen></iframe>

    <iframe width="640" height="390" src="" frameborder="0" allow="autoplay; encrypted-media" allowfullscreen></iframe>
     
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  18. Dave 2000

    Dave 2000 Well-Known Member Supporter I am in spain

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    I have qualified my statements by saying 'most'or 'many' not a sweeping statement by any means. I have seen the evidence with my own eyes.

    I have a Moroccan guy that comes to the garage, he just collects dead batteries and scrap metal, weighs it in and earns a few quid. After six years he has been given a regular job by the council FIVE hours a week! Asked why and it transpires Spain looks after it's own first! NO immigrant regardless of where they come from gets a free ride! Perhaps there is something in Spains tough stance on immigration?

    I agree Rob the language could be a barrier, but then the UK set up schools, this would teach non english speaking immigrants english, for which they got a certificate, I actually worked on the computer setup in the Barking Essex branch, and what happens? The trainers handed out certificates for a 500 quid 'bung', and who footed the bill for hundreds of these schools?

    Germany recognised an ageing population, so let thousands of unvetted immigrants in. What I/we don't read about in the media is the countless muggings and rape crimes have gone through the roof, doctor and hospital waiting lists have gone up as well, and I get my information from the Germans, many retired Germans now live in Spain, afraid to go out after dark in their mother country, remind you of somewhere?

    Of course I could create a website, then I could post up some well written garbage about immigration not affecting lifestyle, hospital waiting lists blah blah, then simply wait for someone to start copying the links onto forums, remind you of anyone?

    Seeing is believing, and I use my own eyes but, don't believe everything you read.

    Regards

    Dave
     
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  19. Shayne

    Shayne Well-Known Member Guru

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    I enjoyed that Chadr thanks for posting , I came away thinking progress will progress , that's why more people in the world can read now than ever before , and those that will progress fastest are those that invest the most in infrastructure . I would sure like to see the UK model in the first video .
     
  20. Dave 2000

    Dave 2000 Well-Known Member Supporter I am in spain

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    It is not about how many immigrants use the NHS, it is about the amount that arrive and do not contribute to it that rocks my boat, tell me that does not happen, tell me every immigrant that turns up, gets a job and contributes to the country wealth, I won't ask for evidence.

    Tell me that every child born to an immigrant family is going to go out and get a job, and of course many brought Nan and Grandad with them but unfortunately they can't contribute, their too old and sick, it's ok....the NHS will look after them.

    Answer my question posted earlier, how can an area population multiply many times over, and yet dwelling yield remain the same year on year, no extra jobs available?

    I do not believe anyone who looses his job becomes a scrounger, at least they made the effort and got one in the first place! And dare I say the hardworking person lost his job not due to general cuts or lower consumer demand, he lost it to an immigrant who will work for half the wage. Don't ask me for evidence, if you are not aware of this then your living on another planet!

    Where I would agree with you ( finally) is the asset stripping comment, that is without doubt a contributory factor, and it is set to get worse and yes the share may not be in balance but it should improve. If non contributory immigration is stopped resources would at least have some extra to go around, having said that it is probably too late.

    Regards

    Dave
     
    Last edited: May 18, 2018
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