Injector leaking

[Deleted member 13129]

Now Im really confused.If the mechanic was bullshitting then he was making a pretty good job of it and sounded very convincing.
The garage has quote 1.8 hrs work rather than the 6hrs they quoted before which did seem odd as I imagined, as you guys have said that there is almost as much work getting to the one injector as there is for all four. I have told the garage that I want to see the work being done to satisfy myself that the work is necessary which they reluctantly agreed to.
I have little knowledge when it comes to under bonnet work so it is difficult for me to know if they are just saying work is needed for the sake of it or not but if there is a problem I obviously dont want leave it and cause more damage.

If its the rubber seal for the injector on the rocker box (cam case) apart from loss of oil no damage will be done if no oil is coming out its not a problem , if its the pipe that connects to the injector thats leaking which is less likely as the garage would have checked for leaks when you had seals changed to ali from copper, you will see and smell diesel fuel . I am very suspicious of the work the garage says needs to be done , have a look your self and see if you can see any leaks fuel or oil , take off the engine cover to make it a bit easier although most of the injectors apart from number one are covered by the intercooler , so I don't know how the garage found a leak unless there is clearly oil or fuel pissing out . If it inside the rocker box the garage would not know unless they did a valve check and would have have said , a valve check and adjustment is costly and you would have paid big money for at a toyota dealer .
regards Tony

 

[Matthew1955]

Tony,I have removed the cover as you suggested this morning and from what I can see there are no leaks whatsoever and there seems to be no evidence of any sort of leak in the past.
Excuse my ignorance but if a seal is leaking can it leak both outwardly ie I would see fuel/oil coming out under pressure and also inwardly which I would not be able to see and would potentially do harm to the engine? Thanks

 

[Rob Cowell]

The oil is inside the rocker cover. It's lubricating the rockers. You just want to keep it in there. So you're only concerned about it getting out. If fuel is leaking from a pipe or joint the ECU detects it and the engine warning light will come on.

 

[Matthew1955]

Thanks Rob,so the big issue/recall over the faulty copper seals is that not potentially similar to the issue that I am posted about? I thought leaking seals if that is what I have were very serious.I must say from what you have all said I am seriously doubting I have a leak.

 

[Rob Cowell]

From the description it doesn't sound like the same thing at all. Where abouts are you in Wales, I wonder if we might be close.

 

[Matthew1955]

Rob I am in Carmarthenshire half way between Carmarthen and Haverfordwest,and yourself?

 

[Deleted member 13129]

Tony,I have removed the cover as you suggested this morning and from what I can see there are no leaks whatsoever and there seems to be no evidence of any sort of leak in the past.
Excuse my ignorance but if a seal is leaking can it leak both outwardly ie I would see fuel/oil coming out under pressure and also inwardly which I would not be able to see and would potentially do harm to the engine? Thanks

Hi
Sorry I have not seen this as I have been out all day and only just got back , The rubber seals on the injector pipes going into the rocker box (cam case) are there to stop oil coming out when the engine is running as oil and crank case gas are under pressure to come outwards, the ali or copper seals (washers) are there to stop oil been sucked in and combustion leaking by been pushed out hence the carbon on the oil strainer in the small sump that then gets blocked and starves the engine of oil . if there is nothing coming out of the rocker cover past the rubber seals on the injector pipes I can't see you have a problem with the rubber seals , It seems to me when dealers mention injectors leaking or injectors seals leaking people with little experience about engines crap them selves and these dealers know it . because you didn't fall for the £700 odd they tried to throw in a cheaper bill for you to fall for . not very nice these folk . some garages think because you brought your car to them for a service you know very little about engines and how they work and they take advantage .

 

[Matthew1955]

So the leak the mechanic says he heard cannot exist as this would be an under pressure outward leak and there is no material evidence of such a leak so I think its time to ignore what the dealership has said and assume the car is a ok.
Just to be doubly sure is it possible to check the oil strainer without draining the oil? and is it something a complete car idiot like myself could do? Thanks again for all your help and advice.

 

[Deleted member 13129]

So the leak the mechanic says he heard cannot exist as this would be an under pressure outward leak and there is no material evidence of such a leak so I think its time to ignore what the dealership has said and assume the car is a ok.
Just to be doubly sure is it possible to check the oil strainer without draining the oil? and is it something a complete car idiot like myself could do? Thanks again for all your help and advice.

It is not possible to check the oil strainer without dropping the oil , to drop the oil is a very easy task , just prise the plastic plate from the bash plate under the engine with a screwdriver and with a 14mm socket on a socket wrench with a 15cm extension undo the sump plug letting the oil drain into a container capable of holding 10 litres so the oil does not overflow , let it drain for about one hour and put a piece lint free rag or strong kitchen roll paper at the very edge of the drain hole to catch any more drops of oil and with your phone on camera mode with flash take a pic of the oil strainer which is just above the drain hole , it should be just appear like a clear metal tea strainer with maybe oil droplets on it , if caked in black carbon tar like gunge it is blocked , you can just look through the drain hole with a torch if you want but put a rag or something at the side edge of the drain so oil does not drip on your face or eyes . no need to take the oil filter off for this task , If you use a clean container to catch the oil and strain it into jugs incase of any contamination you can reuse the oil since you have just had it changed . failing all that just take your car to any friendly garage (not the same dealer ) asking them to do the same task , Had I live within 50 miles of you I would happily come over and do it for you or you come over to my place , but I live in Cyprus now so its not possible , I hope Rob lives near you as he could easily do it for you . Good luck
regards Tony

 

[Richard Turner]

'Injector seals' are definitely the ones that seal the injector to the combustion chamber. They are very common for leaking on all diesel engines. Many times I have known they are leaking on because you can hear them leaking from sitting behind the steering wheel, normally then you just listen at each injector with a tube or stethoscope. If the injector is not inside the rocker cover you can smell combustion inside the cabin also.

Normally too much engine oil will cause them to start leaking, or if the injectors have been refitted with dirt on the faces or using old seals, or if one injector is overfuelling that may cause them to leak too.

On Mercedes Sprinter we call it Sprinter Black Death.

You can see the carbon deposits on the rocker cover (the injectors on a sprinter are not inside the rocker cover) but this is carbon from leaking injector seals that needs to be chiselled away. This is what would go in the oil if there injectors were inside the rocker cover.

Here is an injector from an overfuelling sprinter that melted a piston. If you have a leaking injector you would have smoke from the tailpipe.

Matthew, if you get a bit of tube and listen to the injectors when the engine is idling you should be able to hear the leak and would be able to tell which injector it is by listening. The diagnosis by the garage seems plausible, I don't think they are trying to swindle you, the cost seems very high but it is a Toyota dealership after all! I think they would try and quote a high labour time as it is a dirty and potentially risky job if the injector was stuck or difficult to remove.

You could check for local 'diesel injector repair' specialists near you for a 2nd opinion and perhaps to have the work carried out at a more reasonable rate. I use I local company in Exeter, if I take 4 injectors in to be tested (out of the vehicle) it is about £70, they test them for spray pattern and check the calibration code is correct (injection volume) and they come back with new injector seals ready to refit.

 

[Matthew1955]

It is not possible to check the oil strainer without dropping the oil , to drop the oil is a very easy task , just prise the plastic plate from the bash plate under the engine with a screwdriver and with a 14mm socket on a socket wrench with a 15cm extension undo the sump plug letting the oil drain into a container capable of holding 10 litres so the oil does not overflow , let it drain for about one hour and put a piece lint free rag or strong kitchen roll paper at the very edge of the drain hole to catch any more drops of oil and with your phone on camera mode with flash take a pic of the oil strainer which is just above the drain hole , it should be just appear like a clear metal tea strainer with maybe oil droplets on it , if caked in black carbon tar like gunge it is blocked , you can just look through the drain hole with a torch if you want but put a rag or something at the side edge of the drain so oil does not drip on your face or eyes . no need to take the oil filter off for this task , If you use a clean container to catch the oil and strain it into jugs incase of any contamination you can reuse the oil since you have just had it changed . failing all that just take your car to any friendly garage (not the same dealer ) asking them to do the same task , Had I live within 50 miles of you I would happily come over and do it for you or you come over to my place , but I live in Cyprus now so its not possible , I hope Rob lives near you as he could easily do it for you . Good luck
regards Tony

Thanks again Tony.for all your help .I might have ago at doing the job myself from what you say it doesnt sound to difficult even for a complete novice.If I do I will post the photo and let you know what I find.

 

[Matthew1955]

'Injector seals' are definitely the ones that seal the injector to the combustion chamber. They are very common for leaking on all diesel engines. Many times I have known they are leaking on because you can hear them leaking from sitting behind the steering wheel, normally then you just listen at each injector with a tube or stethoscope. If the injector is not inside the rocker cover you can smell combustion inside the cabin also.

Normally too much engine oil will cause them to start leaking, or if the injectors have been refitted with dirt on the faces or using old seals, or if one injector is overfuelling that may cause them to leak too.

On Mercedes Sprinter we call it Sprinter Black Death.

View attachment 145595

You can see the carbon deposits on the rocker cover (the injectors on a sprinter are not inside the rocker cover) but this is carbon from leaking injector seals that needs to be chiselled away. This is what would go in the oil if there injectors were inside the rocker cover.

View attachment 145596

Here is an injector from an overfuelling sprinter that melted a piston. If you have a leaking injector you would have smoke from the tailpipe.

Matthew, if you get a bit of tube and listen to the injectors when the engine is idling you should be able to hear the leak and would be able to tell which injector it is by listening. The diagnosis by the garage seems plausible, I don't think they are trying to swindle you, the cost seems very high but it is a Toyota dealership after all! I think they would try and quote a high labour time as it is a dirty and potentially risky job if the injector was stuck or difficult to remove.

You could check for local 'diesel injector repair' specialists near you for a 2nd opinion and perhaps to have the work carried out at a more reasonable rate. I use I local company in Exeter, if I take 4 injectors in to be tested (out of the vehicle) it is about £70, they test them for spray pattern and check the calibration code is correct (injection volume) and they come back with new injector seals ready to refit.

Thanks Richard,I definitly dont have smoke coming from the exhaust and the car seem to run perfectly well.I think I will try gettint to see what the strainer looks like which hopefully will give a better indication if there is a problem.

 

[Deleted member 13129]

Thanks Richard,I definitly dont have smoke coming from the exhaust and the car seem to run perfectly well.I think I will try gettint to see what the strainer looks like which hopefully will give a better indication if there is a problem.

Thanks Richard,I definitly dont have smoke coming from the exhaust and the car seem to run perfectly well.I think I will try gettint to see what the strainer looks like which hopefully will give a better indication if there is a problem.

I think checking the strainer is the best way for checking an Lc120 d4d as the injectors are internal , And I don't know why the dealer did not say they checked the strainer when doing the oil change as it is common sense to do so if you have the customers interest at hart, and if it was dirty they could have pointed it out to you , I think the mechanic must have worked on them external injector engines previously like the merc vans to say he could hear the injectors leaking , I know they took the top engine cover off for fitting the cam belt , but to check the injectors they would have had to take off the intercooler and its connections and that's just to see the electrical connectors to the injectors and not the injectors themselves as they are under the cam cover unless he meant the rubber seal as that would hiss and leak oil and you can't see or hear any leaks , and I don't think they would spend labour time to do that check for nothing , and there is no mention of checking the strainer which takes no time or effort to check just before they put back in the drain plug , go ahead and check the strainer it will put your mind at rest .
regards Tony.

 

[Matthew1955]

I have now drained the oil and checked the strainer which looks a little dirty but definitely not clogged up.Here are a couple of photos

 

[Deleted member 13129]

I have now drained the oil and checked the strainer which looks a little dirty but definitely not clogged up.Here are a couple of photos

View attachment 145602 View attachment 145603

Unless its the shadow of the photo It looks bad and definitely needs cleaning , it looks already partly restricting oil flow and needs cleaning asap , but that could have happened to the strainer before the first garage changed the seals to ali and they did not take off the small sump and clean the strainer . If you put a fine screwdriver up through the drain hole and scrape a bit off is it carbon gunge or just oil shadowed in the pic and looks like carbon in the pics it looks like carbon which is not good , the strainer should look clear with just oil on it .

 

[Matthew1955]

Unless its the shadow of the photo It looks bad and definitely needs cleaning , it looks already partly restricting oil flow and needs cleaning asap , but that could have happened to the strainer before the first garage changed the seals to ali and they did not take off the small sump and clean the strainer . If you put a fine screwdriver up through the drain hole and scrape a bit off is it carbon gunge or just oil shadowed in the pic and looks like carbon in the pics it looks like carbon which is not good , the strainer should look clear with just oil on it .

So is this suggesting there is/was a leak on one or more of the injector seals.I have already refitted the plug and put back the oil so cannot without draining the oil again check if there is any carbon deposits,incidentally there was no plate in place to cover the sump and the drain plug so will be ordering one of them shortly

 

[Deleted member 13129]

So is this suggesting there is/was a leak on one or more of the injector seals.I have already refitted the plug and put back the oil so cannot without draining the oil again check if there is any carbon deposits

I am afraid it is suggesting there is/was a leak on one or more of the injector seal or seat meaning the washer/s that fit between the injector and cylinder head . One thing for sure is the strainer needs cleaning , It sounds a good policy to get that garage to stand by there quote £250 for the work and try to get them to agree to clean the strainer for £50 pound more , I would push them to do it for £300 all in and agree to not up the price, or if you know another garage get a quote .
regards Tony

 

[Matthew1955]

I am afraid it is suggesting there is/was a leak on one or more of the injector seal or seat meaning the washer/s that fit between the injector and cylinder head . One thing for sure is the strainer needs cleaning , It sounds a good policy to get that garage to stand by there quote £250 for the work and try to get them to agree to clean the strainer for £50 pound more , I would push them to do it for £300 all in and agree to not up the price, or if you know another garage get a quote .
regards Tony

Thank again Tony for all your help and advice and to other members.I will get onto the garage tomorrow about the strainer and hopefully get a successful outcome when they work on the car next week,regards Matthew

 

[Deleted member 13129]

Thank again Tony for all your help and advice and to other members.I will get onto the garage tomorrow about the strainer and hopefully get a successful outcome when they work on the car next week,regards Matthew

Great Mathew and good luck let us know how you get on .
Regards Tony

 

[Matthew1955]

This morning I have been to the dealership to ask them,one, to supply and fit the missing plastic bash plate and for that they have quoted me £172 plus labour plus vat.
I secondly asked them to remove,clean and refit the oil pickup strainer and quoted me 8hrs labour at £89.50 so £716 plus vat.
When I question why it would take so long I was told in the words of the "chief engineer" as he was described "it is virtually an engine out job to get to the strainer". I he also told me this was the time allowace reccomended by Toyota for the work.
Somehow I sort of imagined it was a fairly simple job,was I mistaken?
I did tell them to stuff their prices and I will get it done somewhere else.Will I be eating my words?