The people have spoken

[Shayne]

And get is into another HELL ruled by a set of multimillionaires with the best for their business behind every decision.

Please explain why it isn't that way now exacerbated by those making the decisions being entirely removed from democratic consequence ?

 

[moggy1968]

An MP has a duty of allegiance to the monarch. Nothing else.

At best they have a duty to the will of their constituents, certainly not the people across the whole country. But there are 173 MPs who were elected with less than 50% of the vote in their constituency, so at best I think they have a duty to those who elected them. And that duty is based on the manifesto of the party they represent. Although no MP is bound to agree with every element of their party's manifesto.

The Conservative party MPs were elected on a manifesto that said "only ... Theresa May's strong and stable leadership can negotiate the best possible deal for our country." So it's down to individual MPs who were elected on that claim to support Theresa May in delivering what they believe is the best deal for the people who voted for them, and with an eye on future elections, hopefully the rest of their constituency.

There was a promise by a government in 2016 to implement the result of the referendum, but that government is gone. And subsequent governments are never bound by the promises of previous governments. Lots of governments don't deliver on their promises.

I think the mistake made was implementing article 50 under pressure from a small block of hard-line Tories, rather than have a proper think about what was needed post EU.

I wouldn’t agree with that. If you look back at the origins of our political system from the English civil war the duty of parliament was to represent the interests and will of the electorate, not the monarchy. The parliamentary system came about in order to remove the supremacy of the monarchy, not to serve them. Although the monarchy returned a wee while after Cromwell’s lot fucked it up there role was purely one of figurehead. While the monarchy are theoretically the supreme legislative authority the reality is they have very little influence.
Parliament is there to legislate the will of the electorate, and is accountable to the electorate, not the monarchy. If they were we would be in a royalist dictatorship rather than a parliamentary democracy!
The swearing of allegiance is entirely different to parliamentary responsibility and accountability.
That’s why we vote for them, and the queen doesn’t.

 

[moggy1968]

We can but hope, personally whatever your stance on this is, going against the law and parliament sets a very interesting president. Personally I don't think I need to pay taxes so I'll just no do it, I mean if the prime minister is above the law, then I can be (see the issues with him just not following the rule of law).

I don’t believe it is the law yet. It has to have its third reading in the commons, be passed, and then sent to the House of Lords for their scrutiny and agreement.

 

[moggy1968]

And get is into another HELL ruled by a set of multimillionaires with the best for their business behind every decision.

Wait you're comparing the EU to Hitler?

Well, if we get rid of the overpowering repression of one set of corrupt self serving pigs with their noses in the trough, then we can see about sorting out the next lot.

 

[steverjuk]

Well with the torries expelling moderate conservatives you basically have a puppet party controlled by a few extreme right torries, all of which have made personal fortunes out of pushing for a harder brexit.

1) Jacob Rees-Mogg https://ftalphaville.ft.com/2018/02/08/2198570/jacob-rees-moggs-huge-personal-windfall-after-brexit/
2) Dominic Cummins non-torry puppet master (constantly pushing for a hard Brexit)
3) Boris Johnson non-elected PM, does whatever keeps him in power, only in power because of his flip flop too hard Brexit

If they go against the rule of law/parliament which the seem to be wanting to do, then it's a slippery slope to a dictatorship.

Everyone seems to think that these people are of the people, none of them has actually worked a day in their life or gone to a school that isn't private.

Also, democratic consequence, we don't have direct democracy we have a representative democracy. By overturning the power of the MPS you are totally undermining the whole idea of our democracy. If we don't believe that the MPS have our interest then let's wait for the next election. The only reason we don't have an election now is Boris refuses to extend his hard Brexit till after one.
Also, they are now attacking any resistance to the idea of a non-hard Brexit, it's funny really all the experts have said it's going to damage the economy but alas who care what the experts say.

 

[Shayne]

It doesn't take an expert to work out it is going to be damaging to the economy , but in my view its like opting for a broken leg over a terminal disease .

 

[chapel gate]

damage to the economy in the short term.

think of it as someone who has been employed by a company for many years. one day they have had enough and decide to go self employed and run there own business. sure, there pay packet takes a turn for the worse for a couple of years, but eventually with determination and hard work the business prospers..

ahh, "experts".
depending on which expert you ask they will have a different opinion. im a practical person and work in a practical job. things are pretty black and white. in general it will either work, or it wont.

the same cant be said for the "experts". if it were the case we would have no boom and bust, no recessions, no wars, no famine, no poor, etc etc.

guess what?
we do.

 

[steverjuk]

Also we out experts we wouldn't have any modern amenities and still be using leeches. If people are happy with making themselves and others poorer in the smart to medium term and possibly long term, like all the experts are saying then you can't really argue with that.
I'm just waiting for the 350 million for the NHS and the massive amounts of investments I was promised.

 

[Shayne]

Modern amenities the gov hasn't put any money into for 20 years because instead it goes to the EU which is a fantasy project every expert ever asked agrees cannot possibly succeed .

 

[chapel gate]

modern amenities are created by practical people.
the NHS continues to work by the skin of its teeth due to the amazing hard work of practical hard working people. ie the nurses and doctors.

not the suite wearing, pen pushing, head nodding, talentless, overpaid, bottom line figure reading "experts" that call themselves management..

 

[steverjuk]

I get the feeling your angry at the wrong people.
1) Modern amenities work because of experts, AKA nuclear power plants, MRI machines, experts are not just the pen pushers. I mean a doctor is an expert and holy crap I don't want kev from down the pub trying to give me a heart transplant.
2) The same people that strip the NHS of funding aka the torries, you want to give more power.
3) I'm still waiting for my 350 million

 

[steverjuk]

Since when bid being educated in a subject become a filthy thing?

 

[Shayne]

Why has public funding been cut again and again when we are doing so well in the EU , where does the money go ?

 

[goodoldboy]

Crashing out of the worlds largest trading block without a deal will be a disaster.Corporations are betting against the UK & the loss of the most productive & profitable car manufacturers in the world will risk 850000 indirect & direct jobs.The government is planning for food & medicine shortages.If you take a look at what happened in WW2 & think about how much more dependent the UK is on imports , without factoring in the number of EU citizens that work there then you might begin to have some idea of what's at stake.The backstop issues have been covered here at length by others but a real risk of the return to violence exists in Ulster.
Now take a close look at who's in charge - a bullshitting clown whose act has reached its limits.
The moment of truth is near & once the cards are face up the bluffing will be found out.

 

[steverjuk]

Let me google that for you https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-45814459 mostly health and social protection. So lets see what massive amount we pay the EU https://fullfact.org/europe/our-eu-membership-fee-55-million/. So yea not much goes to the EU.

 

[Shayne]

Let me google that for you https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-45814459 mostly health and social protection. So lets see what massive amount we pay the EU https://fullfact.org/europe/our-eu-membership-fee-55-million/. So yea not much goes to the EU.

Pittance eh , you couldn't lend me a couple of billion could you

 

[steverjuk]

Well, it's a pittance when you look at the UK budget as a whole and also what we get from the EU in terms of trading, free movement etc etc.

So if you take the worst case we pay in 8.6 billion and the total budget for the financial year 2016–17, proposed total government spending was £772 billion is 1.1% of total spend.

If you take the figure that Brexit costs us 600m a week (https://economia.icaew.com/news/april-2019/brexit-costs-uk-600m-a-week) or 31.2B a year, so that's 3.6 years we could have just paid the EU, but I'm not an expert just someone with google.

 

[Shayne]

Trying to fathom it i used google to see what 1 billion might finance and came up with 300,000 new homes or 2 new hospitals .

 

[chapel gate]

I get the feeling your angry at the wrong people.
1) Modern amenities work because of experts, AKA nuclear power plants, MRI machines, experts are not just the pen pushers. I mean a doctor is an expert and holy crap I don't want kev from down the pub trying to give me a heart transplant.
2) The same people that strip the NHS of funding aka the torries, you want to give more power.
3) I'm still waiting for my 350 million

1) no anger here.

2) this is my point entirely. designers and engineers of power plants and MRI machines are practical experts. they are following engineering and science principles.

a political or financial expert has an opinion on the outcome or consequence of said action. often biased towards there political persuasion or whoever is providing the funds. political and financial forecasts are often incorrect.

3) im still waiting for my Brexit.

 

[steverjuk]

Trying to fathom it i used google to see what 1 billion might finance and came up with 300,000 new homes or 2 new hospitals .

How about we work out the difference between 31.2B a year or 8.6B a year can buy, also if the economy does shrink then let's see what the money could have purchased as well.
People like to make a complex problem a simple problem if the economy shrinks the government gets less tax, more people are jobless so we have a higher social care bill, more people become ill because of lower quality of living etc etc