Understanding lift

[Shayne]

Just want to make sure i understand the different principals of different methods to "lift" 4x4's .

Lets say the choice is a 2" lift using strut spacers , or 2" suspension lift or 2" inch bodylift .

It seems to me a strut spacer is exactly the same as fitting longer but standard springs over a standard shocker . It changes nothing other than to lift the truck in the same way as removing the weight of engine and body might - Am i correct ?

A pro suspension lift does the same thing but because longer than standard springs and shocks are used it allows the tyres to stay in contact with the ground under extreme articulation . The upwards travel doesn't improve over a strut spacer that i can see - am i correct ?

A body lift alone gives no real advantage with regards to articulation it simply gives room for bigger tyres to be fitted - am i correct ?

 

[Mark N]

Just want to make sure i understand the different principals of different methods to "lift" 4x4's .Lets say the choice is a 2" lift using strut spacers , or 2" suspension lift or 2" inch bodylift . It seems to me a strut spacer is exactly the same as fitting longer but standard springs over a standard shocker . It changes nothing other than to lift the truck in the same way as removing the weight of engine and body might - Am i correct ? YES - disadvantage though is that you have a higher centre of gravity but the same rated springs so you will get more body roll. I wouldn't put 2" spacers in personally - maybe upto 1/2" to level a truck out. You may also needed longer shocks....A pro suspension lift does the same thing but because longer than standard springs and shocks are used it allows the tyres to stay in contact with the ground under extreme articulation . The upwards travel doesn't improve over a strut spacer that i can see - am i correct ? NO - travel would change because you have 2" extra of spring to compress. Handling would also be better because the springs would also be a bit stiffer I imagine.A body lift alone gives no real advantage with regards to articulation it simply gives room for bigger tyres to be fitted - am i correct ?YEP!

Answers in quote above.RegardsMark

 

[Mark N]

DANG! doesn't keep the layout formatting - hope you can work out what I was saying Shayne, look for the capitals.

btw cant you choose different text colour on here?

Mark

 

[Chris]

No. they are three completely different things Shayne. The suspension lift is essentially a longer and stronger spring, but it is generally bound by the same length shock absorber. So the overall length of the strut is the same at max free length. But because the spring is 'stronger' it doesn't squash as much when you lower the car and you get lift. The strut spacer works regardless of what springs you have in by effectively making the whole strut longer. As the the strut isn't vertical, when you make it longer, the centre of the wheel is effectively pushed down AND forwards. This gives you more clearance at the back of the tyre where it rubs. A body lift is nothing to do with suspension at all.

Chris

 

[Shayne]

OK thanks fellas , reading between the lines then strut spacers will work fine for me and the only possible down side is more bodyroll - but surely if the spacer compresses the springs it will result in a firmer ride (bit like carrying a boot full of bricks) all the time . I accept i will lose a fair bit of travel in the suspension . But wouldn't a compressed spring self compensate for the higher centre of gravity ?

Mark from what i've read a quarter inch spacer would give maybe a full inch lift , what i meant was 2" more between tyre and mudguard ,

 

[OG.]

Good lift kits should include a longer spring (to get the lift) and a longer shock (to get the travel). Anything that doesn't is a waste of time in terms of articulation as the amount of travel available remains the same so all you end up doing is increasing the roll centre and making the vehicle more inclined to body roll (unless you stiffen the springs reducing articulation). The only side benefit is increased clearance to run larger tyres.

In the Land Rover world lots of people make the mistake of going for a lift then going too stiff in the spring. The vehicle then doesn't have the weight to fully compress the spring thats under compression meaning you lose the available travel. On the opposite side the spring is so strong that it tops out the shock. The spring needs to be matched to the expected weight of the vehicle so when on an axle twister the loaded spring is fully compressed at the same time as the unloaded spring has reached full shock extension (if that makes sense). This way you make the full travel available on both compression and extension and maximise articulation.
On Land Rovers articulation is what gets them through difficult terrain as they have no axle locks. The more axle articulation a vehicle has the further it can go in difficult terrrain before axle locks are needed and the further it will go after they are engaged. If you expect varaible loads look at air assist springs for the rear of the vehicle to help compensate or put in a full air suspension setup (in the process of doing that on my Defender - will take it from 9" travel to 15" travel and fully height adjustable to remove the wallow on the roads.

 

[Shayne]

I'm going with the strut spacer simply because competition parts would be wasted on my truck . Its my daily driver and in very good nick . If i prepare for proper offroading then i just know temptation will get the better of me and i'll wreck it trying to do something silly . The more i read on here though the more i think maybe i should search the scrapyards for something i can trailer to events . But that will have to wait until time allows .

 

[OG.]

First question should be why do you need a lift? Most greenlanes can be driven without one. Its only the more serious ones that would benefit from a lift but even then a little care and waffle boards will often remove the need.

I helped guide a friends standard Land Rover Discovery 2 down Stanage and he never damaged anything. We used waffle boards to ease it more gently over the biggest rocks.

 

[Chris]

Shayne, the strut spacers don't affect the springs or dampers at all. They don't compress the springs. I am running out of different ways of telling you this. OK. I am 6'.0 tall. I stand on a 6" box. I am STILL only 6'.0 tall. But I am 6'.6" off the ground. That's what spacers do. If I go with a suspension lift, then I effectively get stretched until I AM 6'.6" tall.
Forget body roll. You are only going up 2 bloody inches. And you springs and dampers are the same as they are now. You aren't going to lose any travel in the suspension.

Chris

 

[Chris]

OG, you have to read all the other related threads old chap. This is simply about tyre rub on full lock. Not green laning or off roading..

C

 

[OG.]

Ah fair enough

 

[Shayne]

Yeah i get it chris i end up with a standard truck but my tyres will fit better which as you said is all i realy want . I still appreciate what OG's saying though it might come in handy for future reference . I have to say though OG with touchy feely gently as you go i'm sure my truck would get around most tracks without damage ..........................................If someone else drove it .

I'm not saying i dont have the skills required (i was once a digger and site forklift driver) i just have a reckless personality when i'm having fun

 

[Graham]

Hi Shayne,

My 2p is in the same vein as Chris's.

There is Body lift, which I feel, doesn't help as a first choice.
There is strut spacers, which again, is a step towards the replacement springs and shocks direction.

Generally replacement springs of 2 inch longer, go hand in hand with shocks that are capable to utilise this additional 2 inches of movement.
Longer springs with the same original shocks, can work to a degree, but there is the good chance you can overstretch the shocks, and when the shock is fully extended, there is still available spring to be unwound, for a better word.

Springs of additional length are predominantly 50mm = 2 inches.
There are some with I think 35mm or 40mm, 75mm 100mm etc, but the vast number or replacement suspension systems are 50mm.

Of course, the actual lift and feel of the after ride is determined by the spring rate, the designed carry capacity.
Get it right, and the truck rides great.
Get it wrong, and you can have either springs which can't maintain the weight of the truck, and therefore compress too much.
Or springs that are too hard, in the fact that you don't have enough combined weight to work the springs in their designed carry capacity.

As to which replacement springs, well, not for me to say, that is a hot topic.

If your looking for height and suspension changes with lift, then I feel the way forward is replacement springs and shock's

Gra.

 

[Chris]

That's not quite what Shayne is after Gra. In truth the best option on this truck would be to alter the caster angle to push the wheel centre forwards. But we all know what a tough job that is as you have to replace your bushes really.
The packing method is quite strange and works because of the suspension set up on an IFS vehicle like the 90. Essentially the McF strut pivots around the bottom wishbone giving you lift. I tried fitting a SL and the packers to see what happened. Diff clearance was epic but the top wishbone hit the spring. You can't do both.

This is cheap and simple plus it keeps the stock suspension and because it does it in the way that it does, the wheel centre actually gets pushed forward a little so that bigger tyres clear the arch.

That's all he's after. A true SL sort of gives lift at both ends of the suspension column whereas the packers add it all in one place if that makes sense.

Chris

 

[Graham]

Hi Chris,

Them springs don't have wires on them I don't know

Gra,

 

[Chris]

Bit early for hitting the Sherry there Gra. What????

Sometime you make no sense at all. It's like someone using Google translate. Ha ha.

C