Trevor said:
What he said
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Winches
- Thread starter Ian Rubie
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What he said
Still think that all you need is a 9.5.
I remember pulling myself out of the end of the bottom water run at Lincomb on a single line. It's near vertical at the end and it did it without fuss. Ian was the only person to be able to drive through it unaided and even that took two attempts if I recall. Quite a test of a winch. Like I said, it did it on a single line. All very well having 12 000lbs, but in reality, you'll need to make sure that all the other bits are similarly rated. D links, straps and strops etc. As the winch only pulls at the rate that it needs - in other words it's not actually pulling 12 000lbs most of the time, I doubt that there would be many occasions where you actually realise the extra potential. You'd have to be pretty stuck and as I have said before, I have never stalled my 9500s in the past and I have been utterly stuck.
We need to be careful not to see a 9.5 as something puny. Ok, my maths might be out, but in terms of kgs, the extra that a 12 brings is the same as one of those little Machine Mart hand winches that are about £20 and can pull 1250kgs. Remember also that the top rating is only for the first turn on the drum. If you go with the thicker rope, the loss is accelerated as the drum fills faster (in some logarithmic way) and of course you can't get so much rope on the drum. The thicker ropes are 90 feet. Given the choice of longer rope or stronger winch, I know where I have fallen short in the past. And it's not the stronger winch I have needed! You need to leave 6 turns on the drum so now you are even shorter. I would suggest considering - if you go for the 12k, going with the thinner rope. It's more than capable and gives you the benefit of slower drum fill and a longer reach. I believe that you can get about 120 feet on from memory. Of course you can carry straps etc, but as people have already pointed out on here that they like a single pull because doubling is a faff, well you might as well double by the time you have got all the extra straps and links out of the back to reach the nearest tree!
Nothing wrong at all with having a 12. I can just see a fever setting in. It's gotta be a 12 or it's no good.
Just observations chaps that's all. Clearly a matter of individual choice and price. I only need (sorry want) an 8000 or similar on the back. I'd like it to be as compact as possible for space reasons. Nothing to do with price or pull really, it's just that when you dip down on the rating, some of the winches tend to come in a smaller frame size.
Chris
I remember pulling myself out of the end of the bottom water run at Lincomb on a single line. It's near vertical at the end and it did it without fuss. Ian was the only person to be able to drive through it unaided and even that took two attempts if I recall. Quite a test of a winch. Like I said, it did it on a single line. All very well having 12 000lbs, but in reality, you'll need to make sure that all the other bits are similarly rated. D links, straps and strops etc. As the winch only pulls at the rate that it needs - in other words it's not actually pulling 12 000lbs most of the time, I doubt that there would be many occasions where you actually realise the extra potential. You'd have to be pretty stuck and as I have said before, I have never stalled my 9500s in the past and I have been utterly stuck.
We need to be careful not to see a 9.5 as something puny. Ok, my maths might be out, but in terms of kgs, the extra that a 12 brings is the same as one of those little Machine Mart hand winches that are about £20 and can pull 1250kgs. Remember also that the top rating is only for the first turn on the drum. If you go with the thicker rope, the loss is accelerated as the drum fills faster (in some logarithmic way) and of course you can't get so much rope on the drum. The thicker ropes are 90 feet. Given the choice of longer rope or stronger winch, I know where I have fallen short in the past. And it's not the stronger winch I have needed! You need to leave 6 turns on the drum so now you are even shorter. I would suggest considering - if you go for the 12k, going with the thinner rope. It's more than capable and gives you the benefit of slower drum fill and a longer reach. I believe that you can get about 120 feet on from memory. Of course you can carry straps etc, but as people have already pointed out on here that they like a single pull because doubling is a faff, well you might as well double by the time you have got all the extra straps and links out of the back to reach the nearest tree!
Nothing wrong at all with having a 12. I can just see a fever setting in. It's gotta be a 12 or it's no good.
Just observations chaps that's all. Clearly a matter of individual choice and price. I only need (sorry want) an 8000 or similar on the back. I'd like it to be as compact as possible for space reasons. Nothing to do with price or pull really, it's just that when you dip down on the rating, some of the winches tend to come in a smaller frame size.
Chris
I've been reading this thread with interest, when I got my winch eons ago I got a 12000lb because I thought then obviously bigger is better, but from what I've read here I think a 9500lb would have been fine, next time it will be 9500. As Chris pointed out more length is usually better than more power. I have a 10mm synthetic rope on the winch and the most I can get on the drum is 100 ft so maybe a 9mm would get me a bit more length, what's the breaking strain of 9mm?
need vs want, a tricky subject because most of what we have we don't need at all but you seem to be on a mission with 9.5k vs 12k Chris. According to the Goodwinch sales blurb the 12k has a 47% (ok 46.8 but I rounded it up) gearing advantage over the 9.5k so the motor will always be turning at a more optimal, reliable and controllable speed, very close to the line speed of a doubled 9.5k (I don't think Goodwinch shows line speeds anywhere to cross reference that). If you want to go fast get a 9.5k and be happy, I'm happy going slower with a 12k
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Well I will ad my bit to this. A 9000lb superwinch X9 would not pull mine out even with a bigger motor fitted, so I sold it to a friend with a LR. I have not had the same problem with the 12000lb TDS. I do not do getting stuck as I will drive round something where I am going to get that stuck. On saying that I did once have to have 2 winches double lined to get me out 
TDS winch have the same HP motor on them all, just the gears are changed to change the pull speed and rate. Also you can upgrade to a Bow motor 2 if you feel you need more
.
Paul
TDS winch have the same HP motor on them all, just the gears are changed to change the pull speed and rate. Also you can upgrade to a Bow motor 2 if you feel you need more
.Paul
Not on a mission at all Jon. Just trying to be objective. You do have a hulk of a machine there in your 100 and I can see you being in positions where a 12k might be the necessary tool. What I am concerned (if that is the right word) is that some may get caught up in the 'I need a 12k winch' when they don't. In some cases over-engineering is good, but I think that in winch terms, all you need is all you need. I seem to recall that Black Widow (Steve) went with an 8000 for his 95 and you all used it all day long to play with on the winch course. I don't recall any problems but I wasn't there.
If they are the same price then who gives a stuff, but when money is tight, I just feel that a bit of objectivity might give some a degree of peace of mind. A 9.5 is absolutely fine if all you do is a bit of pay and play and some fun on the Plain and the occasional Lincomb trip etc. If you plan crossing the Moab, then get a 20 000lb winch back and front, spare on the roof and 6 extra ropes. But most of us don't need that lot. Seriously, there isn't a great deal in it price wise, but it does make a difference to some.
So really not on a mission, just being rational. If you haven't owned a winch before, then you are in the hands of those giving advice. I am merely supplying a 'parallel' point of view, not opposing at all, so that others can weigh up what they read and make the right choice for them. I'm simply saying that I have never needed a bigger winch. I have needed something to fasten it to, I have needed more rope, I haven't suffered from poor power supply and I have never stalled nor broken one.
Of course it was I who said in the beginning, 'there is need and there is want'. I don't NEED an 80 at all. Never mind a winch.
That's all.
Chris
If they are the same price then who gives a stuff, but when money is tight, I just feel that a bit of objectivity might give some a degree of peace of mind. A 9.5 is absolutely fine if all you do is a bit of pay and play and some fun on the Plain and the occasional Lincomb trip etc. If you plan crossing the Moab, then get a 20 000lb winch back and front, spare on the roof and 6 extra ropes. But most of us don't need that lot. Seriously, there isn't a great deal in it price wise, but it does make a difference to some.
So really not on a mission, just being rational. If you haven't owned a winch before, then you are in the hands of those giving advice. I am merely supplying a 'parallel' point of view, not opposing at all, so that others can weigh up what they read and make the right choice for them. I'm simply saying that I have never needed a bigger winch. I have needed something to fasten it to, I have needed more rope, I haven't suffered from poor power supply and I have never stalled nor broken one.
Of course it was I who said in the beginning, 'there is need and there is want'. I don't NEED an 80 at all. Never mind a winch.
That's all.
Chris
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There was quite a bit of waiting for it to cool down and although it was a reasonably steep hill it was a low drag surface and a pretty standard 95 not heavily laden ... but that's a warn 8k, not a TDS 9.5kChris said:
Trevor
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Well I think I have made my mind up (for now 
) I will go for the TDS 12 option. The only thing I currently do not know is whether this will fit into the Freeway Lattitude 120 winch bumper with the soleniod over, or do I mount the solenoid inside the engine bay instead? (I've not seen any dimensional drawings on this bumper)
Any one with this knowledge please share.
The only other proviso is that the alternative to the true TDS 12 can be waterproofed equally as simply with RTV.
) I will go for the TDS 12 option. The only thing I currently do not know is whether this will fit into the Freeway Lattitude 120 winch bumper with the soleniod over, or do I mount the solenoid inside the engine bay instead? (I've not seen any dimensional drawings on this bumper)Any one with this knowledge please share.
The only other proviso is that the alternative to the true TDS 12 can be waterproofed equally as simply with RTV.
pugwash
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Jon Wildsmith said:
What jon said- the winch wasn't the best fit for the vehicle- it should have been able to winch that vehicle up that slope without breaking sweat.
only way to really see is to get out and see a few in action and what you think. As i won't be doing competitions with a goldfish i would always get the more powerful winch- for self recovery you don't need an extra 10% speed, but what you would need isthe extra 10% overhead of pulling capacity so the winch isn't under full load all the time.
Richard Jackaman
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Just to add my experience with a Goodwinch TDS 9.5 to the mix.
I've got one fitted along with 100feet of dynema and a Lodar remote to my 70 series. It's been on there for the past 3 years and has worked flawlessly.
Now I understand that a 70 series is a lot lighter than my 80 but bear with me.
Our local 4x4 club runs an event called "Shandon, to the top and back" each year at an offroad site on the west coast of Scotland, Shandon no less.
The object of the weekend is to get all the vehicles to the top on the Saturday, camp and come back down on the Sunday. Shandon is basically a boggy hillside with more, boggier, level bits along the way.
Both times I've taken part the Saturday has been spent winching a variety of vehicles 100 feet at a time up this hillside. The winch is run for probably about 2 hours in total over the day. The TDS has never given me any issues whether recovering myself or pulling heavily laden Discoveries out of the mire. Most of the time these were single line pulls and on some occasions we would pull a landrover three or four hundred meters in one go with the addition of straps etc. Never noticed any deterioration because of heat or weakness of the batteries.
The huge advantage of the TDS over Warn or similar models is the speed and easy that it freespools. It's a very nice winch to use and the line speed although not a quick as a Warn 8724 is good.
I would expect that some time this year I'll move this winch over to the 80 series rather than get a new one.
Cheers
Richard
I've got one fitted along with 100feet of dynema and a Lodar remote to my 70 series. It's been on there for the past 3 years and has worked flawlessly.
Now I understand that a 70 series is a lot lighter than my 80 but bear with me.
Our local 4x4 club runs an event called "Shandon, to the top and back" each year at an offroad site on the west coast of Scotland, Shandon no less.
The object of the weekend is to get all the vehicles to the top on the Saturday, camp and come back down on the Sunday. Shandon is basically a boggy hillside with more, boggier, level bits along the way.
Both times I've taken part the Saturday has been spent winching a variety of vehicles 100 feet at a time up this hillside. The winch is run for probably about 2 hours in total over the day. The TDS has never given me any issues whether recovering myself or pulling heavily laden Discoveries out of the mire. Most of the time these were single line pulls and on some occasions we would pull a landrover three or four hundred meters in one go with the addition of straps etc. Never noticed any deterioration because of heat or weakness of the batteries.
The huge advantage of the TDS over Warn or similar models is the speed and easy that it freespools. It's a very nice winch to use and the line speed although not a quick as a Warn 8724 is good.
I would expect that some time this year I'll move this winch over to the 80 series rather than get a new one.
Cheers
Richard
Ian Rubie
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Well that certainly caused an interesting discussion. We have explored getting TDS winches direct from the factory via Graham as a local buyer. They would not even sell to a local.
It is obvious from the comments that DB has a very good product and a loyal following. It is about a 50:50 split from the thread and PMs I have received between only a Goldfish will do and I am happy to try a cheaper alternative.
I have found a couple of suppliers who I think offer interesting products on paper. They are not TDS winches, they are different products from different factories.
As I have mentioned in the Freeways thread we have unfortunately hit a red tape delay. It is going to be at least four months before we bring any winches in.
Cheers
Ian
It is obvious from the comments that DB has a very good product and a loyal following. It is about a 50:50 split from the thread and PMs I have received between only a Goldfish will do and I am happy to try a cheaper alternative.
I have found a couple of suppliers who I think offer interesting products on paper. They are not TDS winches, they are different products from different factories.
As I have mentioned in the Freeways thread we have unfortunately hit a red tape delay. It is going to be at least four months before we bring any winches in.
Cheers
Ian
silvercruiser
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Just to bring this up again is Ian back from china yet? and any luck with some winches.
Joe
Joe
Andrew Prince
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Yip, I believe Mr Rubie lands sometime this morning with a bag full of goodies from Dubai and a long shopping list from China
silvercruiser
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Come on Ian i cant take it anymore
what deals did you strike. im like a fat kid in a sweet shop waiting for this news
Joe
what deals did you strike. im like a fat kid in a sweet shop waiting for this news
Joe
Ian Rubie
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Well the winch factories were far better news than the bumper factories.
There are some really interesting products out there. After talking it through with Greg we have settled on using two of the factories I visited as our suppliers. One for our run of the mill winches and the other for our slightly more innovative winches.
Firstly our run of the mill offerings. I can not and will not mention any names but a lot of companies source their winches from this factory. We are going to stock 10K lb and 13K lb models. The winches appear to be made to a high standard and have rubber O ring seals instead of the paper gaskets a lot of winches have. They have a patented clutch design which means the winch can click in and out of freespool every time without the need to flick the motor a little.
The other winches have some interesting features that some of you may be interested in. The first winch is a 12k one that has a two speed gearbox. In high speed mode the winch has limited pull (about 300kg) but has a line speed of about 87 feet per minute. In low speed mode the line speeds are comparable to the average 12k winch. The winch is also fitted with an adjustable torque limiter (ATL). This is basically a slipper clutch that will slip just before the motor stalls, this will protect the winch, rope and recovery gear from those times when the user over does it a bit! Another feature is an electromagnetic brake. Basically the brake locks the drum solid until current is applied to the motor at which point it releases. As soon as the current stops the drum gets locked again.
The second winch from this company is also a 12k unit. This one has a freespool clutch that is controlled from the winch hand held control. It also has the ATL and electromagnetic brake.
I have seen all the winches working on test rigs. We are going to order a small quantity of each of the winches so they can be stress tested here under the sort of use I would put a winch to.
Pricing is still under negotiation but will be very competitive
Ian
There are some really interesting products out there. After talking it through with Greg we have settled on using two of the factories I visited as our suppliers. One for our run of the mill winches and the other for our slightly more innovative winches.
Firstly our run of the mill offerings. I can not and will not mention any names but a lot of companies source their winches from this factory. We are going to stock 10K lb and 13K lb models. The winches appear to be made to a high standard and have rubber O ring seals instead of the paper gaskets a lot of winches have. They have a patented clutch design which means the winch can click in and out of freespool every time without the need to flick the motor a little.
The other winches have some interesting features that some of you may be interested in. The first winch is a 12k one that has a two speed gearbox. In high speed mode the winch has limited pull (about 300kg) but has a line speed of about 87 feet per minute. In low speed mode the line speeds are comparable to the average 12k winch. The winch is also fitted with an adjustable torque limiter (ATL). This is basically a slipper clutch that will slip just before the motor stalls, this will protect the winch, rope and recovery gear from those times when the user over does it a bit! Another feature is an electromagnetic brake. Basically the brake locks the drum solid until current is applied to the motor at which point it releases. As soon as the current stops the drum gets locked again.
The second winch from this company is also a 12k unit. This one has a freespool clutch that is controlled from the winch hand held control. It also has the ATL and electromagnetic brake.
I have seen all the winches working on test rigs. We are going to order a small quantity of each of the winches so they can be stress tested here under the sort of use I would put a winch to.
Pricing is still under negotiation but will be very competitive
Ian
