Can't believe I am asking a handbrake question

[Chris]

Guys, this is a general model question due to the handbrakes on all models being so similar. I am flummoxed.

Neighbour, got a Colorado. Poor handbrake. Forget for the moment any real holding power. We aren't at that stage.

Shoes good. Inner drums good. General condition good. Top spring now the right way round. Very little wear in the bell crank pivot. All springs in place. Clevis pin free. Wire rope thing engaged on crescent thing. Look you get the idea, I wrote the thread on handbrakes. He's even fitted a new cable.

So what do we have. Well, wind the little cog so that the shoes are rammed against the drum, wheel locked ok. Then push the bell crank outer end to take up the slack and wind out the little mushroom headed 6mm bolt. Errr, hang on. The end of the crank where the handbrake clevis pin goes must move 30mm at least. So long that even a lengthened bolt won't act as a stop. And even at that, with the cog backed off one notch, it's only just enough to cause the brake to come on very slightly. Forget levers and adjustment on cables etc, this is hand operating the crank. Where the hell is that movement going? He's had the whole lot out on the deck and put it back in again to my instructions. I repeat it's all in really good condition in there. No muck, rust, scrunge or anything. With the disc off, operating the crank simply doesn't transfer any movement to the shoes. Bottom adjuster is in there, top spreader plate is in there. Genuinely I can't think of anything else. Anyone had a similar experience with huge movement and no effort applied? I have not been round there all day so I haven't seen every single bit, but when I ask him, he's able to describe exactly what should be in there.

Sensible ideas please. Anyone mentions brake fluid levels and I shall come round in the night....

 

[Richard Jackaman]

It couldn't be wear on the top plate, the one under the top springs with the square spring on the end. If the notch that the crank works against wears it might cause the slack.

 

[Chris]

Good suggestion Richard, but I'd say not. That's the spreader plate as I call it. If that were worn, the shoes would move together at the top for sure, but when the lever is cranked you'd still see the same degree of movement in the shoes. Thing is there isn't any when you pull the crank. Usually one side moves and the other slide is slaved off that against the pressure of the shoe against the inside of the drum. But looking at both shoes there ain't nothing going on.

 

[MisterCruiser]

Is that the proper way to set them? Rather than winding out the cog until the shoes are rammed against the drum and then only backing off 1 notch,,, should you not have the drum off and adjust the cog until the drum will just fit over the shoes, then adjust the cog until the wheels start to bind and then wind the cog back 1 notch and then tighten up the handbrake lever in the cabin? Did i just describe 2 ways of doing the exact same thing I find it easier to gauge the shoes catching when putting the drum back on as opposed to trying to gauge them binding with the whole drum already on.

The handbrake on these yokes seems to be a right pain in the balls, My drivers side is giving awkward trouble. I don't really understand what you're doing when you talk of taking the slack out of the crank lever, how do you do this? I didn't quite get that part of the setup when you refer to in in your handbrake guide thread either. Why are you adjusting the stopper bolt whilst moving the crank lever by hand? I thought that stopper bolt was just to act as a stopper, so when you start off with the handbrake all slackened off in the cabin and backed off on the cogs in the drums and the stopper bolts are against the drum back plate, why do you need to go near that stopper bolt when tightening things up?

My drivers side stopper doesnt return to the backplate when I let the handbrake down, I think because its a little sticky with rust but adjusting the actual stopper bolt wont solve this problem? I fail to see what you're doing with the crank lever and stopper bolt?

 

[Chris]

Hmmn, not exactly what I'd call help there MC. I'd rather not get into the details of how to adjust the HB. That's what the other thread is for. Trust me that IS how you set them up effectively. The point of taking all the slack out is so that when you pull the lever, all you get is useful movement. Other wise all you get when you pull the handbrake lever is the slack. The nut in the cabin has nothing to do with adjusting the handbrake. It's for adjusting the cable.

The adjuster stopper bolt takes the pre slack out of the mechanism in the disc/drum AND importantly balances them from side to side. If you only adjust the cable, all you get is the passenger side pulling on and the drivers side not working properly as it is slaved from the near side. Just like you are having. You have to adjust the shoes to the drum, then the crank to the shoes, then the cable to the lever.

You can't pull the driver's side on harder than the passenger side. Not unless you adjust them up. Which is what we have done today, but there isn't any movement in the shoes; this is regardless of drum on or off. And that is what we are trying to get to the bottom of.

 

[Mark01]

The only way I finally got my handbrake sorted was to put some weld in the end of the spreader effectively making it longer. Part filling in one end of the spreader made the shoes activate as soon as the bell crank moved instead of right at the end of travel. I had the same set up, new discs, pads, shoes and hand bake cable.
Truck passed mot yesterday with this repair.
Cheers, Mark

 

[Chris]

Understood Mark. I have done dozens of these now including the 6 Cruisers I have owned. I have always got the brake bang on but never had to resort to that. Now, the condition of the brake components on my neighbour's truck are about as good as you could find so I find it hard to believe that it's wear to that degree, but I WILL certainly have a look at that possibility. These are not new discs, not new pads by the way. All look good, but not new or recently changed. Clearly a PO has had a go here and maybe given up. The cable was stretched and was at the end of its thread with the usual washers on there. This is wrong wrong wrong. It doesn't work. Now what I think has happened between MOTs is that what little passable hand brake was achieved through this method has gone. But it beats me why I can't get the mechanism to move with huge movement of the crank. Can't look tomorrow but determined to sort it with him.

 

[Towpack]

With the shoes locked against the drum with the cog wheel adjuster the only purpose of the adjuster/stop bolt on the back of the bell crank is to take up any slack in the actuating mechanism. The inner end of the bell crank connects to the leading shoe with a short cable link. If this cable has stretched then it will produce more slack/travel at the bell crank? Assuming the bell crank pivot is sound with no excessive play I just can't see where the extra bell crank travel comes from. JMO

 

[Chris]

I know, frustrating isn't it. He actually too the whole thing to bits and pulled out the crank which is a hateful job. Sheared the bolts and replaced them (err he's quite handy. Army vehicle workshop manager) and found almost no wear at all in the pivot point. it's almost like that little wire rope is elastic!

 

[Richard Jackaman]

With the drum off do you get any visible movement in the shoes if you move the lever connected to the forward shoe? I found on mine, which I have to revisit tomorrow, that there is a slight stepped notch in the spreader bar so the lever can move a bit before the shoe does, hence the slack. I would think if the crank side of the spreader is even slightly worn then it will be magnified by the time it gets to the bottom of the lever that connects to the small cable.

 

[Mark01]

I can't say the spreaders looked particularly worn on my truck, after a good bit of head scratching my solution was all I could think to do next. Maybe something happens to the alloy actuators on the shoes over time, or they differ a bit as you change shoes, I don't know. Of all the cars and trucks I've had this is the first time I had do this to get a handbrake.

Cheers, Mark

 

[Chris]

Helpful guys. as I said, I didn't supervise each step and he may have missed some wear signs. I shall have a look when he's got it in bits again. If incorrectly installed - hey people manage to get things hammered in where we couldn't, then there may have been excessive wear. I'll have to look. it is a lot tighter in there than i remember from my Colorado days.

 

[sae70]

I replaced the little wire rope connector once due to stretch. The one inside the drum that connects the bell crank to the lever on one of the shoes. I could tell it had stretched as it kept coming off inside the drum resulting in no hand brake

 

[Richard Jackaman]

OK, In an effort to get to the bottom of why then handbrake is difficult to get right I've spent the day experimenting. Oh and I need to get through my MOT on Friday.

Bit of history.

I've had the back axle off and replaced the brake pipes, rotors, callipers, pads, handbrake cable, pivots along with the shocks and springs.

Today I've had the wheels off three times and the disks off twice and have learnt the following.

1. I don't want to do it again.
2. I think I've sorted it

First I removed the wheels and used Chris's guide to adjust first the sprocket then the bellcrank adjuster to take up the slack and finally the handbrake cable.

Took it for a spin and nothing.... couldn't tell if the handbrake was on or not

Second attempt I removed the wheels and the disks and replaced the brake shoes. Again adjusted and again cr*p. Far too much slack in the whole system.

So I had a cuppa and a think.

What I think is happening is that when you use the sprocket to tighten up the shoes it only pushes them out at the bottom. Therefor the top that is actuated by the cable, bell crank and lever is still sitting well off the inside of the drum. This occurs over time as various parts wear and become sloppy.

I tried Marks technique of welding extra onto the spreader bar.

First I took up all the slack on with the existing setup



As you can see the bellcrank adjuster is all the way out.

I took the spreader off and could see a bit of wear on one end.



Built up the wide end with some weld.



Smothed it off a bit.


I refitted the spreader without adjusting anything else.

Berfore.



After.



As you can see the shoes are quite a bit off the centre pivot.

Slackening everything off then re-adjusting first the sprocket then taking up the slack with the bellcrank adjuster shoes a massive improvement.



I adjusted the handbrake cable and took it for a spin. Much better, would actually stop the truck. I need to bed the shoes in a bit and am a bit limited as I have no MOT at the moment so have to just run up and down our road which is still privately owned.

So in summary it looks like although you can lock the wheels with the sprocket adjustment while the truck is on axle stands it's only the bottom part of the shoe that is hitting the drum which is not enough for an effective handbrake. We then get into the process of taking up the slack (or not in the case of Chris's friend) first with the bellcrank adjusters then finally the handbrake cable. As the trucks age and things wear then this is not enough.

I hope that this is helpful and sorts the issue for some of you.

Cheers

 

[Chris]

Can't see any pics at all there. But the explanation makes sense. We know this is how it works and that high spotting can occur meaning you get pressure but no effect. This is why the manual tells you to drive with the handbrake pulled on - to 'machine' the shoes to the drum. But that I don't get is why there can be so much wear. Problem is at the second that we don't seem to be getting any movement at all that I can see. The shoes are locked against the drums and then the crank moves out miles. I mean miles. So much so that even with a long 6mm bolt in there, when extended it missed the back plate stop pad.But this spreader bar is a good place to start looking guys. Thank you

 

[Richard Jackaman]

Pictures should show now.

I think it's just a combination of wear that's the issue. 1/2mm on the short cable, a bit in the pivot at the top where the crank connects to the shoe, 1/2mm at each end of the spreader, slight slop in each of the bellcrank pivots all adds up. Then this is all magnified due to the lever actions of the bellcrank and the lever that connects to the shoe.

It would explain why some people can just follow your guide and get a good brake and som,,like me struggle.

 

[Chris]

Well this just gets worse. Chap next door bought new bits from Mr T. It now has a new main cable, pins, new bell cranks and new wire ropes. It's the best looking handbrake I have seen by the way - condition wise. There's no rust or anything. We looked at the spreaders, there's zero wear on those. I get the bit about modding them with some weld. We may do that, but there is no wear on them at the moment. all that lock back in, the brake shoes are adjusted up and surprise surprise even without them being backed off one click, the bell crank STILL pulled right round before anything at all happens. I am stumped. One thing he hasn't tried is patterning the shoes against the inside of the drum to check that they are the RIGHT shoes. What we have found is that the driver's side, now it's put back together correctly DOES seem to work. Slight pull on the crank and both shoes move out. But on the passenger side, all that movement does nothing. It's really strange.

 

[Richard Jackaman]

When you move the bellcrank by hand do you see movement on the lever connected to the forward shoe? If you do then the issue is either the pivot on the front shoe being worn or the spreader, there's nothing else. Move the lever by hand or with some grips on the short cable and check how much play there is before the shoes move.

The bottom of the shoes should move slightly before the top as the bottom spring is much weaker than the two top ones.

The correct orders is bottom shoes out until they contact the drum. This creates the pivot point for leverage. Top rear shoe them moves first until it hits the drum,as it has the weaker of the two top springs. Finally the top front will move pushing off the back shoe.

This might not be visible with the drum off.

 

[Chris]

Thanks Richard, trust me I do know how it works, I kinda wrote the book on this one. Thing is it just ISN'T working. It's baffling honestly. Problem it's not my car and I can only pop round for a chat. Guy is good on the tools but I don't want to get in his way. Nothing more annoying than having Reg from next door telling you you're going it wrong. So, I haven't sat in contemplation on this one with it in front of me. But having had it all in bits, I genuinely cannot see a single thing wrong. The shoes are new, look like Milner ones, but my neighbour didn't put those in. They are unworn and the crescent actuator arm looks perfectly mounted. Another difficulty I am facing now, personally, is failing eyesight. I'm 50 next year and just stared wearing glasses recently for close up stuff. They're good, but when you are doing tricksy stuff like this they are a right pain.

 

[Richard Jackaman]

50 next year, lucky bugger, I'm 50 this year

Glasses are a pain, especially when working on things lower down as you're always looking through the wrong part.