The world has gone mad

[NCFJ]

Most states here have adopted some form of the Castle Doctrine. Boiled down, this law allows you to defend yourself from intruders in your own home. Where formerly you were required to flee if possible, even if in your own home, now you are within your rights to "stand your ground" and confront the intruder. In many state this also extends to your vehicle and your work place. Similar laws apply to the protection of your person where the law requires you to be in fear for your life before you defend yourself. Both my wife and I are permitted by the state to carry a concealed firearm. We were required to take classes and pass both a written and live fire test at a range.

The USA is very much a gun culture. I can not tell you the actual percentage of citizens that own weapons but I know that where I live out in the country I just assume everyone has a gun. Not always on their person but at least in their homes. Last statistic I read was that 5% of South Carolina citizens have a concealed carry permit. I was at the X-mas party for our Cruiser club on Sat and I would guess that 75% of the trucks there had a gun in it. I in fact was checking out one member's new Springfield Armory 1911 style 45 cal. Nice weapon.

 

[froggy Steve]

Thats a bit scary!
I have a shotgun (12g), 22lR rimfire rifle, a 357 magnum revolver and a newly ordered (not here yet) Sig Saur 22 semi auto pistol - ALL are locked in a steel, double locked cabinet, bolted to the wall. When transporting them to the range, secure box, locked, and they will have a trigger guard on for good measure (not the shot gun though!)
if anyone broke in, they would drown in the Labrador slobber, giving me enough time to unlock the cabinet, remember what the trigger lock number is, load it up and .....
The Feds came round and double checked everything before the permit was issued.

 

[Crispin]

Like I said shayne, world's gone mad... You have to wait for the burglar to perhaps gain the upper hand...

 

[Crispin]

Don't be surprised by the labradour. They're not fighting animals but mine in sa was cornered by someone with two pitbulls threatening me. He killed on pitbull pretty quickly with the second one having to be put down from injuries. My lab was in a state, many puncture wounds and a face torn to shreds but get was not the looser. My lab here attacked a dog while out walking. Dog was running towards my 3 year old daughter.
They'll hurt when they want to.

 

[Crispin]

Most states here have adopted some form of the Castle Doctrine. Boiled down, this law allows you to defend yourself from intruders in your own home. Where formerly you were required to flee if possible, even if in your own home, now you are within your rights to "stand your ground" and confront the intruder. In many state this also extends to your vehicle and your work place. Similar laws apply to the protection of your person where the law requires you to be in fear for your life before you defend yourself. Both my wife and I are permitted by the state to carry a concealed firearm. We were required to take classes and pass both a written and live fire test at a range.

The USA is very much a gun culture. I can not tell you the actual percentage of citizens that own weapons but I know that where I live out in the country I just assume everyone has a gun. Not always on their person but at least in their homes. Last statistic I read was that 5% of South Carolina citizens have a concealed carry permit. I was at the X-mas party for our Cruiser club on Sat and I would guess that 75% of the trucks there had a gun in it. I in fact was checking out one member's new Springfield Armory 1911 style 45 cal. Nice weapon.

I think though when guns are as common as that, the game "up's" a level on both fronts. Originally from SA and it's like that there. The citizens armed themselves because the criminals did (arms obtained illegally). Now it's turned into a case of he-who-shoots-first-wins. When general arms are not common, it becomes a fighting match but ultimately, not often are lives lost.

I've lost family members in SA where they thought they could shoot their way out of a robbery and I have walked away from being held hostage for 6 hours by 6 arms maniacs only because I did not have a gun (i.e. I did not think I could be Rambo.).

It swings both ways

 

[Shayne]

Like I said shayne, world's gone mad... You have to wait for the burglar to perhaps gain the upper hand...

Depends how you read it Crispin , had Jason been asleep to wake with the intruders hands around his throat he might have been given a medal instead . Police have very big ears when your saying what they want to hear but their hands are tied if your own words hang you

 

[NCFJ]

I think though when guns are as common as that, the game "up's" a level on both fronts. Originally from SA and it's like that there. The citizens armed themselves because the criminals did (arms obtained illegally). Now it's turned into a case of he-who-shoots-first-wins. When general arms are not common, it becomes a fighting match but ultimately, not often are lives lost.

I've lost family members in SA where they thought they could shoot their way out of a robbery and I have walked away from being held hostage for 6 hours by 6 arms maniacs only because I did not have a gun (i.e. I did not think I could be Rambo.).

It swings both ways

Those of us who are sane and understand and keep firearms in this country do it for general one reason, as you stated, the bad guys carry firearms. It is simply a matter of fact. Our gun culture has deep roots and can be traced back to the beginnings of this country. It all started with all types of people "discovering" this country and pretty much shooting any natives that got in their way. Fast forward to present time and you have bad people that use guns to achieve what they can not by any other means. Those of us that understand that if anything crazy happens here on our farm, the sheriffs people are generally at least 15 minutes away. Crazzies here walk in to public places and shoot people before shooting themselves.

So what has evolved is regular God fearing folks across this country now carry concealed weapons with the hope they never have to use them. But it is far better to most of us to have a weapon and never fire it than to be in a position you need one and not have it. We had an instance in the next town over about 3 years ago. About 1 AM two armed men (19 & 20) walk into a Waffle House restaurant just off the interstate. They were local kids. There were about 15 people in the place. They start waving their guns around, get the waitress to open the register and tell everyone to put their cash and jewelry on the counter and tables. There is surveillance video of all of it.

It is when the one suggests to the other that they take everyone in the back and shoot them so there are no witnesses that a 24 year old man at the counter slowly reaches down and pulls his concealed carry weapon from its holster and keeps it under the counter. He waited until the one bad guy is across from him at the counter , draws his weapon and levels it on the bad gguy and tells him 3 THREE times to drop his weapon. The bad guy spins on him and the citizen with a carry permit triple taps hi, the other bad guy runs out the side door and is caught later.

Of course the dead guy's family swears he was a saint, despite his already ,at 20, lengthy criminal record. The 24 year is a client at thee school I attended and is still friendly with our instructor. He is still going to see a counselor about the shooting. He still wears a concealed weapon.

Interesting how different our cultures are in that respect.

 

[Crispin]

I'm not anti-guns; I'm indiffernt. I appreciate how places like the US it is different and in cases like you mention, that's how it pans out. I don't for a second think that in cases like that the guy who "saved the day" went home shouting yea-haa. To take a life has to be a life-changing thing (for you, not the perp )


Gun crime is epidemic preportions in London if the news was to be believed. (TiC) Outside of the gang-warefare there is pretty much nothing. If people started arming themselves then the criminals would start steeling them and it would spiral. I'm quite happy with it the way it is now


It always reminds me of Bill Hick "hooligans" sketch https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-BbqV19miKU

 

[moggy1968]

Most states here have adopted some form of the Castle Doctrine. Boiled down, this law allows you to defend yourself from intruders in your own home. Where formerly you were required to flee if possible, even if in your own home, now you are within your rights to "stand your ground" and confront the intruder. In many state this also extends to your vehicle and your work place. Similar laws apply to the protection of your person where the law requires you to be in fear for your life before you defend yourself. Both my wife and I are permitted by the state to carry a concealed firearm. We were required to take classes and pass both a written and live fire test at a range.

The USA is very much a gun culture. I can not tell you the actual percentage of citizens that own weapons but I know that where I live out in the country I just assume everyone has a gun. Not always on their person but at least in their homes. Last statistic I read was that 5% of South Carolina citizens have a concealed carry permit. I was at the X-mas party for our Cruiser club on Sat and I would guess that 75% of the trucks there had a gun in it. I in fact was checking out one member's new Springfield Armory 1911 style 45 cal. Nice weapon.

yes, and we can all see where that gun culture has got to. I certainly wouldn't like to see that in this country.

I think in the Tony Martin case the problem was the burglar was running away when he shot him, but I can't be sure on that, I Wasn't in the court room

YOu are entitled to use 'reasonable force' which doesn't mean shooting an unarmed burglar.

Having said all that, the law is, IMHO wrong. If a burglar knew that if he broke into someones house he could be met by significant force maybe they would think twice about it, although your average drugged up crack head after something to steal to pay for his next fix doesn't really think that rationally. There is a convincing argument against this of course that escalation will inevitably result. The burglar will tool up to make sure he has the upper hand. If he knows he might be met by a gun, he will carry a gun. At that point it ceases to just be a burglary and you end up with your family dead.

I've been burgled twice, and I regret not being in, but then, if I had been, maybe now I would have a criminal record and be out of job. The last time was by 2 fourteen year olds when we were out having dinner with my mum and dad. If I had walked home, as I walked to the restauarnt, rather than scrounging a lift off my mum me and my dad would have met them, carrying our stuff, down the old railway track near our house. Sometimes I wish I had (especially as all one of them got was a supervision order), but as in amongst the things they had stolen was a kitchen knife, who knows where it would have ended. It would certainly have escalated the level of violence in my response.

If you want an example from my own working environment some drunken nobber had a female nurse in ED pinned against the wall by the throat with her feet off the ground while battering her. The charge nurse ran in and punched the bloke out. He was sacked, struck off the register and last I heard was stacking shelves in Tesco.

 

[Crispin]

snip
YOu are entitled to use 'reasonable force' which doesn't mean shooting an unarmed burglar.
snip

Tell that to this guy. http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/millionaire-beaten-pulp-burglars-believes-4721258
He was beaten by four unarmed burglars. You should be allowed to shoot (or use whatever force you are able to) if you are in fear. You should not have to "size them up" first....

If I was a burglar and I got the crap kicked out of me during a job or shot - it's a risk I am taking. Why should I be protected against it? It's like a motorbike delivery driver in London is more at risk of serious injury than a Fedex driver in a truck.

if you're robbing someone you have no rights to "put up a fair fight". You should be shot and removed from the gene pool. We don't want you.

 

[Shayne]

http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/260562/CLEARED-MAN-WHO-KILLED-A-BURGLAR

 

[Crispin]

[emoji23]
Like they said, common sense

 

[Shayne]

Reminds me of a conversation on the subject one drunken afternoon in the pub , one and all were generally citing exactly how they would inflict grievous bodily harm on the burglar and the law be damned when a usually quiet old gentlemen piped up "what would you do if you were in America and you caught someone climbing in through your window" ?

You can imagine the response , shoot him was repeated from every corner . The wise old bugger raised a finger for silence and said "no you don't because if he fell back out the window you would be in trouble then"

 

[Chas]

Just inside my front door on the hall table, I have a paper knife, for opening envelopes of course, it is a replica Tantō a short blade Japanese knife for committing ritual suicide by disembowelment. This one doesn't have a cutting edge but it does have a fearsome pointy end, I just hope I have the guts to use it if necessary.
I still keep the receipt for it which clearly states it is a letter opener.

 

[moggy1968]

Tell that to this guy. http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/millionaire-beaten-pulp-burglars-believes-4721258
He was beaten by four unarmed burglars. You should be allowed to shoot (or use whatever force you are able to) if you are in fear. You should not have to "size them up" first....

If I was a burglar and I got the crap kicked out of me during a job or shot - it's a risk I am taking. Why should I be protected against it? It's like a motorbike delivery driver in London is more at risk of serious injury than a Fedex driver in a truck.

if you're robbing someone you have no rights to "put up a fair fight". You should be shot and removed from the gene pool. We don't want you.

Using emotive examples to try and make a point rather undermines the credibility of sensible discussion. The example lends nothing to the debate. I could cite any number of cases of victims being beaten by criminals but to do so lends nothing at all to the discussion.

Clearly when being faced by 4 burglars on when you are on your own the degree of reasonable force will be different to that if you were presented with a 14 year old scrawny youth in your house.

Clearly, when faced with 4 intruders the degree of force you would be entitled to use

Also, if you read my post correctly, instead of quoting small parts out of context, you will see that in my next sentence I say I do believe that the law is wrong.

 

[goodoldboy]

I think we've had this discussion before so ill say it again - summary justice is fine as long as you're not on the receiving end.

 

[Shayne]

Bloke killed my mum , i didn't want him jailed because it would make him harder to get to and i made a police statement saying as much .After serving a very short sentence due to who he was he was given full police protection , a council house with bullet proof glass ffs , a panic button for immediate police response , a regular drive by . Nobody knew about the bullet proof glass and the door having deadbolts on every edge . It took 15 minutes for police to gather all units to respond which gave somebody time to demolish the garden wall and use it as a battering ram to make a hole in the glass big enough to put his head through and issue a warning . Nobody was charged because the alleged offender refused to make a statement unless shown the statements against him . The murderer was taken into police custody for his own protection as soon as police arrived on the scene and was relocated overseas at the taxpayers expense .

What is justice ?

 

[moggy1968]

Thats a terrible story Shayne, I can't begin to imagine how it would feel.
I have gone through scenarios in my head like that about my kids and I have to say, I wouldn't be relying on state justice, but I would keep quiet about it until the time came.
It's not right, I know it's not right, but I'd do it anyway.

 

[Shayne]

What you do afterwards really doesn't matter you can only hope you get the chance to do something before the damage is done .

Worst part is 17 years later her entire family insist on competing over who was hurt the most , often to the point of violence and so the damage continues to multiply with no end in sight .

 

[moggy1968]

very true