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Trumps guns.

Clive makes a good logical argument but as Frank says, we can't put the top back on the bottle. Guns are out there and we could eliminate all of the legally held ones should we really be determined. But the world is awash with illegally obtainable ones. Most of those though aren't used in massacres. They are used in many other crimes but in the main, looking back, the big events have been as a result of someone having access to weapons that were legally held. I can't change that. They should NOT have had them and certainly there's evidence that the police knew but did nothing.

These events are few and far between really, but they make headline news and therefore are high profile. But the numbers really are quite small when set against the numbers killed with illegal weapons on a daily basis across the UK. The problem is that whilst there is little that can be done to control clandestine ownership of illegal firearms, targeting legally held ones is relatively easy. Just needs some votes in Parliament. But where do we stop? I am minded of a friend of mine who says 'Just because you can it doesn't mean you should'. There's 3500 people killed a year on the roads, an incredible 1,000,000 uninsured drivers on the UKs road. Kids as young as 12 receiving driving bans.

So whilst I agree something could be done, would it be proportionate in terms of everything else that happens in society? Now of course I am pro shooting, clearly, but I also defend other people's rights to go and do stuff.

Bloody 'clip-clops' around here trotting around on the lanes two abreast scowling at motorists. Right, ban horses from the road. Make them have road tax and insurance ...

Golfers? Taking up all the prime real estate that could have starter homes built on it.

And that flaming distillery. The town centre needs more car parking. Knock it down! Who needs whisky?

The issue is that there are many people (my mother-in-law) who suffer from a thing called 'moral outrage' They feel it's their duty to voice an opinion over something they know nothing about. She actually does support a ban on all guns, but then in the next breath asks me if I have any venison .....

What we don't get is facts presented properly. We get shouting matches on the telly with idiots like Vine or Kyle or whom ever they are. There's no intellectual exchange anymore. And that my friends is why we now have BREXIT
 
Clive makes a good logical argument but as Frank says, we can't put the top back on the bottle. Guns are out there and we could eliminate all of the legally held ones should we really be determined. But the world is awash with illegally obtainable ones. Most of those though aren't used in massacres. They are used in many other crimes but in the main, looking back, the big events have been as a result of someone having access to weapons that were legally held. I can't change that. They should NOT have had them and certainly there's evidence that the police knew but did nothing.

These events are few and far between really, but they make headline news and therefore are high profile. But the numbers really are quite small when set against the numbers killed with illegal weapons on a daily basis across the UK. The problem is that whilst there is little that can be done to control clandestine ownership of illegal firearms, targeting legally held ones is relatively easy. Just needs some votes in Parliament. But where do we stop? I am minded of a friend of mine who says 'Just because you can it doesn't mean you should'. There's 3500 people killed a year on the roads, an incredible 1,000,000 uninsured drivers on the UKs road. Kids as young as 12 receiving driving bans.

So whilst I agree something could be done, would it be proportionate in terms of everything else that happens in society? Now of course I am pro shooting, clearly, but I also defend other people's rights to go and do stuff.

Bloody 'clip-clops' around here trotting around on the lanes two abreast scowling at motorists. Right, ban horses from the road. Make them have road tax and insurance ...

Golfers? Taking up all the prime real estate that could have starter homes built on it.

And that flaming distillery. The town centre needs more car parking. Knock it down! Who needs whisky?

The issue is that there are many people (my mother-in-law) who suffer from a thing called 'moral outrage' They feel it's their duty to voice an opinion over something they know nothing about. She actually does support a ban on all guns, but then in the next breath asks me if I have any venison .....

What we don't get is facts presented properly. We get shouting matches on the telly with idiots like Vine or Kyle or whom ever they are. There's no intellectual exchange anymore. And that my friends is why we now have BREXIT
Well said Chris. :clap:
 
People say the same about 4x4 drivers Moggy. We don't (in most cases) need them, we do it because it is enjoyable.



Clive, civvies owning hand guns in the UK has been banned since '97. As I've said previously, gun crime (in the UK) using hand guns is on the increase, year in, year out. There is already strict enforcement, it is illegal, but this does not prevent the lawbreakers one jot.
And I say again, when was the last time we had a mass shooting in the UK. Yes gun crime is increasing but the types of firearms available, limitations on ammunition and the lack of supply of suitable weapons due to effective legislation means that we don’t suffer anywhere near the levels of gun crime suffered by other countries. Yes they do say the same about off roading, but when was the last time a group of children were massacred by an errant off roader? Likening firearms to horse riding, golf or off road driving is frankly ridiculous and makes your argument just sound like nonsense
 
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I agree and said previously and as Clive (I think) and others have said, America’s real problem now is it’s so awash with guns it would be very difficult to persuade people to give them up, especially with their abject paranoia.
The genie is indeed out of the bottle, and getting it back in will be a tough job which I don’t think they will ever have the will to undertake.
 
how many yanks/brits have to have a yearly medical (if you can call it that) from their GP to enable you to have a weapon? How many get a visit from the Gendarmes to check you are of sound mind and have proper security? This has got to be done rather than just go buy something, even if you are a bit mad. The yanks need to have more checks. It takes around 12-16 weeks to get approval to go buy a new gun here - not an hour.
Its tough getting weapons here, but, they are trying to kurb us as everywhere else cos the terrorists have guns......Charlie Hebdo terrorists used the same weapon I have, but bought it illegally - you wont stop illegal weapons, ever. You can stop legal ones though, but why? The security at the club is good. We have to now wear a badge so everyone knows we are members and responsible. We are not allowed to take anyone to the range without prior approval from a committee member. We now have to have 1 member to 1 guest which is a shame, but its the rules.
I dont mind rules, they are after all for the benifit of everyone - but I wouldnt be happy to lose my Sunday morning entertainment
 
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Whoa there Moggy. I did not liken firearms to horses etc so let's just get that straight fella. I was talking about freedom and moral outrage by the largely misinformed public. It's just like shutting green lanes because of all the damage that 4x4s do - when in fact as we know the park authorities understand that it's generally through water erosion and are generally very fair when it comes to road closure to protect the lanes. But walkers think the lanes are footpaths and THEIR footpaths to boot.

So I was really talking about intolerance.
 
They can't ban Americans from having guns when there's about 3 guns per head of population already in circulation most of which would simply vanish from public record if such a law was introduced .

They can ban the sale of arms though , keep selling and regulate ammunition hence owners are still on record . Then start a Government funded buy back program so every mother can see a new pair of shoes in it when she catches her teen playing with a gun he bought in school .

It would be a long slow process but it would be progress .
 
In the UK Steve, they're currently thrashing around trying to find new measures on controlling access. You don't have to have a GP sign you off as such but despite that some GPs are refusing to sign as an 'appropriate' person for an applicant. Now is this becaue they don't like guns? No. Is it because they can't be bothered? No. I'll tell you why; it's fear of liability. If you do go nuts then they think that because they signed you of as stable at the time then 5 years later they're going to end up in court. Which is a nonsense, but that's the fear factor. Once again no one has taken the time to actually explain what it is they'd be signing for.

I went something like 15 years without seeing my GP. How on earth would they know me? And - this is true, when I did go, she said, Oh hello, I've not seen you for a long time - how have you been?

Well, you're the expert - take a guess!!!!
 
I bet theres a tax on gun sales as well...
 
As an aside to this, some of the Scandinavian countries have almost compulsory gun ownership - OK not quite but they have a heap of weapons per household and very very little gun crime. Now is that because everyone has them, or that they're respectful, or drunk or that their admin is so good they've got it right. Genuinely I don't know how it works as well as it seems to.

Not sure I have ever paid VAT on a firearm. Maybe they are tax free. Whaayhaay
 
Sorry , me again. Well I'm bored. So I went to a gun show today. Yes how ironic. Someone asked if you could really own a .50. Well this was for sale at £6995 .50 BMG Only thing was it was left handed so I left it.

Screen Shot 2018-02-16 at 18.06.17.jpg
 
In the UK Steve, they're currently thrashing around trying to find new measures on controlling access. You don't have to have a GP sign you off as such but despite that some GPs are refusing to sign as an 'appropriate' person for an applicant. Now is this becaue they don't like guns? No. Is it because they can't be bothered? No. I'll tell you why; it's fear of liability. If you do go nuts then they think that because they signed you of as stable at the time then 5 years later they're going to end up in court. Which is a nonsense, but that's the fear factor. Once again no one has taken the time to actually explain what it is they'd be signing for.

I went something like 15 years without seeing my GP. How on earth would they know me? And - this is true, when I did go, she said, Oh hello, I've not seen you for a long time - how have you been?

Well, you're the expert - take a guess!!!!
lol, I am a regular at the quacks being a bit borderline diabetic, but we have to get our car driving licenses checked every few years with the HGV and trailer cats I have. So the doc actually does know me :)
But, he can quite easily say no - I dont think Mr Steve is good to own a gun. Then the Gendarmes would arrive and take them away :(
There isnt the litigation mentality in froggy land - if you fall down the stairs in a shop cos your pissed doesnt wash here, thank goodness.
My gun club membership costs 120€ a year, but includes insurance. Being a small club, we have a restricted membership of something like 300. If you dont get your annual application in on time, your out & its bye bye guns.
TBH I wish they would curb the drunk hunters shooting at a giant yellow labrador cos they thought he was a Roe Deer...........last year in the woods behind our house........the boys now wear fluro jackets during the season........luckily, there are so many 'incidents' with the hunters and people / horses/ donkeys / dogs being shot, they are checking the hunters more often. 70% are ancient and dont hold valid hunting permits as they have always hunted. the younger ones have to have tests and exams.....so they can tell the difference between a yellow lab and a roe deer.............
 
Sorry , me again. Well I'm bored. So I went to a gun show today. Yes how ironic. Someone asked if you could really own a .50. Well this was for sale at £6995 .50 BMG Only thing was it was left handed so I left it.

View attachment 140567
Similar price over here - but in € :)
I so need to save up :)
 
Whoa there Moggy. I did not liken firearms to horses etc so let's just get that straight fella. I was talking about freedom and moral outrage by the largely misinformed public. It's just like shutting green lanes because of all the damage that 4x4s do - when in fact as we know the park authorities understand that it's generally through water erosion and are generally very fair when it comes to road closure to protect the lanes. But walkers think the lanes are footpaths and THEIR footpaths to boot.

So I was really talking about intolerance.
I was looking at this bit:

'Bloody 'clip-clops' around here trotting around on the lanes two abreast scowling at motorists. Right, ban horses from the road. Make them have road tax and insurance ...

Golfers? Taking up all the prime real estate that could have starter homes built on it.'


Apologies if I misinterpreted that
 
As an aside to this, some of the Scandinavian countries have almost compulsory gun ownership - OK not quite but they have a heap of weapons per household and very very little gun crime. Now is that because everyone has them, or that they're respectful, or drunk or that their admin is so good they've got it right. Genuinely I don't know how it works as well as it seems to.

It's what I said earlier about the cultural issues the states has.

was that gun show in the UK?:fearscream:
 
I have to confess to putting my shit stirring hat on with my post (some may have noticed)...

I do respect those who deserve it and that includes the “Responsible folks [who] want to own and use them. Even Chris and Al, whoever he was...

The truth is there’s no real answer IMO, guns are out there, the good folks who want them pay their taxes, club fees and keep them secure and thus are out of the equation.

So what is left?

Well the nutters and the guns which are available.

It’s a but difficult to be rid of all the nutters, many wear disguises and pass off as quite normal, till they show their colors (a bit like religious fanatical sleepers) so out of all the parameters I started with, there’s only the guns and availability left to deal with.

The guns we’ve already decided are out there and the top is off the bottle, so there seems to be only availability left.

Chris’ guns aren’t available, I’ll bet they’re locked up safe and sound, probably sleeping on pillows in a hermetically sealed controlled environment, so whose guns are available?

Any chance the authorities could successfully tackle them/that?.... doubtful, isn’t it? sadly...
 
No probs at all. Just anther example of the boards being no substitute for a good pub debate - in person. By the way we all know it's cheese and onion.

For a tolerant country we do seem very intolerant. Stuff gets us really mad; neighbour's music, tall hedges, parking spaces and so on, but seldom are we moved to actually blowing each other to bits over it or going on a killing spree.

I think what I struggle with is that position where the switch gets flipped from what we all see as normal to that which we see as headline news.

Having said that, I'd still ban bloody clip-clops.
 
The comparisons of gun ownership in the US with that in the UK, or indeed, most other countries is pretty pointless IMO. As I understand it, the “Right to bear arms” phrase we keep hearing goes right back to the early days of the Wild West when gun licensing wasn’t even considered and people wore side arms like they wore a hat, it was the norm. These days they have pre-licence checks of sorts and there are variations from state to state regarding various aspects of ownership (carrying concealed weapons etc) but the right to own a gun is as embedded as the right to own a driving licence and a car is over here.
It just puts into perspective the enormity of the challenge the US administration is facing.
 
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