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Coolant loss help please
- Thread starter Paulsven
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Pat
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The reason I did not reco my motor was that the water getting into the cylinder had broken rings in no2piston and would have needed a resleeve in that cylinder and and boring out to about 20' oversize and their initial quote for the job was $9500 nz so I found that getting a good used one out of a wrecked wagon was a much better proposition at $4100 fitted.
Hoping it's a diamond that dropped off a ring of the last person that opened it up! Could sell it for parts!
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Hi
I've just had the head off my 80. That query over the timing I had with mine. I think it is to ensure that none of the pistons are at TDC when you put the head back on in case you have valves sticking out by mistake on the TDC pistons. Doesn't matter as long as you check your valves are closed on 1 + 4 when you put the head back on, which they will be if the camshaft is off at that stage. That piston doesn't need replacing as long as you clean it up to ensure no bits break loose. Someone found a cracked bore on the 80 section causing water loss. Carefully check for cracks in the bores by turning the engine. You can buy crack detector spray and test each bore with pistons on BDC. BE CAREFULL TO TURN THE ENGINE AN EVEN NUMBER OF TURNS ie 2 4 6 or 8. Being a 4 stroke engine if you turn an odd number of times your pump timing will be out.
Still could well be the head though if they are a weak point but worth checking the bores with it off.
If you want a picture of a crack look at "I must not lose my head" on the 80 section.
I've just had the head off my 80. That query over the timing I had with mine. I think it is to ensure that none of the pistons are at TDC when you put the head back on in case you have valves sticking out by mistake on the TDC pistons. Doesn't matter as long as you check your valves are closed on 1 + 4 when you put the head back on, which they will be if the camshaft is off at that stage. That piston doesn't need replacing as long as you clean it up to ensure no bits break loose. Someone found a cracked bore on the 80 section causing water loss. Carefully check for cracks in the bores by turning the engine. You can buy crack detector spray and test each bore with pistons on BDC. BE CAREFULL TO TURN THE ENGINE AN EVEN NUMBER OF TURNS ie 2 4 6 or 8. Being a 4 stroke engine if you turn an odd number of times your pump timing will be out.
Still could well be the head though if they are a weak point but worth checking the bores with it off.
If you want a picture of a crack look at "I must not lose my head" on the 80 section.
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Sorry "Pump timing MAY be out" so go even to make sure.
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Trevor
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This is how the valve positions should look like on the head when the camshaft sprocket timing marks are lined up. (camshaft sprocket is out of shot but to the left of this pic). When the crankshaft pulley timing marks are lined up, pistons 1 and 4 should be at TDC. As long as both statements above are true then you will be fine when refitting the head.
http://i742.photobucket.com/albums/...D-A737-20F5CF73D7A1-1814-000003785EDDEA39.jpg
The most important thing is to make sure you buy the correct head gasket, the thickness of head gasket is identified by the number of holes in one corner. The photo below shows the 5 hole gasket (holes are in a 45 degree line at the top right of the gasket in the picture). From memory I think you get 1,3 or 5 holes. 1 being the thinnest gasket and 5 the thickest. My original gasket was a 3 hole but as I'd had the head skimmed I had to go up a thickness to the 5 hole.
So either replace yours with the same number of holes as your old gasket, if there is any doubt about which gasket to use then you must measure how much the piston protrudes from the top of the block when the piston is at TDC.
The FSM says:-
Piston Protusion mm (inch) Gasket Size
0.08-0.12 (0.0031-0.0047) Use "1"
0.13-0.22 (0.0051-0.0087) Use "3"
0.23-0.33 (0.0091-0.0130) Use "5"
It stands to reason that if the head has been skimmed then essentially the valves will be closer to the block by the amount that the head was skimmed, this is why I went for the next size up in gasket thickness to ensure an open valve wouldn't hit the piston. I can't find any detail in the manual what thickness an original head should be, it might be worth taking the head to a specialist (pressure test etc) and see if they can determine if it's been skimmed before and how much was taken off. This may help in choosing which thickness gasket to put back on.
Gasket thicknesses are:-
mm (inch)
1 Hole 0.80-0.90 (0.0315-0.0354)
3 Hole 0.90-1.00 (0.0354-0.0394)
5 Hole 1.00-1.10 (0.0394-0.0433)
http://s742.photobucket.com/user/tc...91-5466-000007E99A4A4186_zps79b6cc57.jpg.html
http://i742.photobucket.com/albums/...D-A737-20F5CF73D7A1-1814-000003785EDDEA39.jpg
The most important thing is to make sure you buy the correct head gasket, the thickness of head gasket is identified by the number of holes in one corner. The photo below shows the 5 hole gasket (holes are in a 45 degree line at the top right of the gasket in the picture). From memory I think you get 1,3 or 5 holes. 1 being the thinnest gasket and 5 the thickest. My original gasket was a 3 hole but as I'd had the head skimmed I had to go up a thickness to the 5 hole.
So either replace yours with the same number of holes as your old gasket, if there is any doubt about which gasket to use then you must measure how much the piston protrudes from the top of the block when the piston is at TDC.
The FSM says:-
Piston Protusion mm (inch) Gasket Size
0.08-0.12 (0.0031-0.0047) Use "1"
0.13-0.22 (0.0051-0.0087) Use "3"
0.23-0.33 (0.0091-0.0130) Use "5"
It stands to reason that if the head has been skimmed then essentially the valves will be closer to the block by the amount that the head was skimmed, this is why I went for the next size up in gasket thickness to ensure an open valve wouldn't hit the piston. I can't find any detail in the manual what thickness an original head should be, it might be worth taking the head to a specialist (pressure test etc) and see if they can determine if it's been skimmed before and how much was taken off. This may help in choosing which thickness gasket to put back on.
Gasket thicknesses are:-
mm (inch)
1 Hole 0.80-0.90 (0.0315-0.0354)
3 Hole 0.90-1.00 (0.0354-0.0394)
5 Hole 1.00-1.10 (0.0394-0.0433)
http://s742.photobucket.com/user/tc...91-5466-000007E99A4A4186_zps79b6cc57.jpg.html
Last edited:
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Paul,
Valve Timing:
To save a couple of thousand words - here are some pictures to help you.
The 1KZ-TE is an "Interference Motor", i.e. the pistons will hit the valves if the crankshaft and camshaft get out of sync. So:
The Injector pump pulley drives the lower end of the cam belt. The pump is gear-driven in behind the covers so you won't lose your timing there. however, it runs at half engine speed so you have to be on the correct cycle when re-assembling - which is easy . .
Turn the crankshaft CLOCKWISE until the pointer and notch on the front pulley are in line:
Then check the alignment marks on the lower cambelt sprocket.
If it is 180 degrees out, turn the crankshaft one more revolution.
You want both alignment marks to be correct:
Then, before refitting the head, set the camshaft sprocket so that its marks are aligned:
Then clap the head on - without turning anything.
When refitting (or, preferable, fitting a new) timing belt - ensure that the driven side is tight and that all teeth are properly engaged in the sprockets. I use a bungee on the 'slack' side to keep it from jumping off:
Compress the tensioner and put a 'pin' in it - I have used a small pop rivet stem in the past:
Make sure that everything is still aligned and that the driven-side of the belt run is tight before pulling the pin.
Now . . Next question . . What are the bores like ???
With the head off you can turn the crank without upsetting anything
.
All going well
.
Bob.
Valve Timing:
To save a couple of thousand words - here are some pictures to help you.
The 1KZ-TE is an "Interference Motor", i.e. the pistons will hit the valves if the crankshaft and camshaft get out of sync. So:
The Injector pump pulley drives the lower end of the cam belt. The pump is gear-driven in behind the covers so you won't lose your timing there. however, it runs at half engine speed so you have to be on the correct cycle when re-assembling - which is easy . .
Turn the crankshaft CLOCKWISE until the pointer and notch on the front pulley are in line:
Then check the alignment marks on the lower cambelt sprocket.
If it is 180 degrees out, turn the crankshaft one more revolution.
You want both alignment marks to be correct:
Then, before refitting the head, set the camshaft sprocket so that its marks are aligned:
Then clap the head on - without turning anything.
When refitting (or, preferable, fitting a new) timing belt - ensure that the driven side is tight and that all teeth are properly engaged in the sprockets. I use a bungee on the 'slack' side to keep it from jumping off:
Compress the tensioner and put a 'pin' in it - I have used a small pop rivet stem in the past:
Make sure that everything is still aligned and that the driven-side of the belt run is tight before pulling the pin.
Now . . Next question . . What are the bores like ???
With the head off you can turn the crank without upsetting anything
.All going well
.Bob.
Last edited:
Paddler Ed
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That's interesting Bob, I was under the impression that Toyota timing belt equipped engines were non-interference, as they know that a belt may snap, whilst a timing chain is less likely (although they do stretch over a very long time) and therefore interference is an option.
You live and learn everyday, and I like the bit about which side to tension up as I need to get round to doing the belt on my 3VZE when I get the balancer on and the cam pulleys reattached...
You live and learn everyday, and I like the bit about which side to tension up as I need to get round to doing the belt on my 3VZE when I get the balancer on and the cam pulleys reattached...
wobbly
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So,
Is the damage to the pistons caused by valve-impact?
I wouldve thought the damage was a bit too widespread, but the indentattions are pretty uniform, maybe valves and injector tips?
It does tend to indicate previous work that maybe hasnt been done whilst not wrong maybe not as right as it could have been?
On a plus, theres no obvious signs of a cracked head!
Just checked my rad - its 50mm+, and is original, so I reckon the aftermarket on you have is a narrower 2 core - my fan sits almost entirely withing the shroud.
Ive never heard of an actual problem with aftermarket rads though?
Pete
Is the damage to the pistons caused by valve-impact?
I wouldve thought the damage was a bit too widespread, but the indentattions are pretty uniform, maybe valves and injector tips?
It does tend to indicate previous work that maybe hasnt been done whilst not wrong maybe not as right as it could have been?
On a plus, theres no obvious signs of a cracked head!
Just checked my rad - its 50mm+, and is original, so I reckon the aftermarket on you have is a narrower 2 core - my fan sits almost entirely withing the shroud.
Ive never heard of an actual problem with aftermarket rads though?
Pete
So a few fellow W4x4R members have indicated the damage to the pistons could be from a turbo blade fracture......more possible expense!
No more guess work.....I have a plan! I have decided I'm taking out the engine! Whooooooaaaa!
Ordered a 2 tonne hoist and an engine stand from SGS today.
Have sourced measuring instruments to measure bores etc. Think I now have pretty much everything tools wise to get the job done as well as a wealth of expertise on here to assist when I get stuck.
I'm going to dye test the head and block. Probably going to change all pistons and rings. Reconditioning turbo etc.
Basically I am going to rip the whole lot out and rebuild from scratch re-using what I can and replacing want I can't re-use. I'm going to clean the whole thing up and make it good as new! Can't be that hard, right? haha........whilst I'm at it I might have everything chromed! (ok that is a step too far!)
Some people have said there is no need to change the 2 pistons but I think I'd rather swap them out. Might as well as clearly they are not right.
With the engine out I might be able to do some other mod works on the shell.
Trying to stay positive and see it as a challenge.
What's the worst that can happen? Go bankrupt and have a bunch of knackered parts in the garage I can't remember how to put back together!
Might have to end this thread as I think we are a bit beyond help for a coolant issue and start up a new "my engine rebuild" thread.
No more guess work.....I have a plan! I have decided I'm taking out the engine! Whooooooaaaa!
Ordered a 2 tonne hoist and an engine stand from SGS today.
Have sourced measuring instruments to measure bores etc. Think I now have pretty much everything tools wise to get the job done as well as a wealth of expertise on here to assist when I get stuck.
I'm going to dye test the head and block. Probably going to change all pistons and rings. Reconditioning turbo etc.
Basically I am going to rip the whole lot out and rebuild from scratch re-using what I can and replacing want I can't re-use. I'm going to clean the whole thing up and make it good as new! Can't be that hard, right? haha........whilst I'm at it I might have everything chromed! (ok that is a step too far!)
Some people have said there is no need to change the 2 pistons but I think I'd rather swap them out. Might as well as clearly they are not right.
With the engine out I might be able to do some other mod works on the shell.
Trying to stay positive and see it as a challenge.
What's the worst that can happen? Go bankrupt and have a bunch of knackered parts in the garage I can't remember how to put back together!
Might have to end this thread as I think we are a bit beyond help for a coolant issue and start up a new "my engine rebuild" thread.
Trevor
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Go for it Paul. Once you get into it, these engines are nice to work on. As you say, there are plenty of people on here who can offer advice and help you through. That feeling you'll have when you turn it over on the key and it runs is fantastic.
wobbly
Well-Known Member
Paul,
Just read your original post on the other forum......the previous owner says they put a new head on it? I reckon that damage is part of the original problem - so it could be that the new head and gasket are ok now, it would explain why you have damaged piston heads and an ok head!
Out of interest....if you havent already, stick some photos of the truck up, you'd be surprised how many vehicles get recognised again.
Pete
Just read your original post on the other forum......the previous owner says they put a new head on it? I reckon that damage is part of the original problem - so it could be that the new head and gasket are ok now, it would explain why you have damaged piston heads and an ok head!
Out of interest....if you havent already, stick some photos of the truck up, you'd be surprised how many vehicles get recognised again.
Pete
Yes the chap I bought it from put on a new head, gasket, radiator and water pump so hoping that lot will still be ok. Obviously will be using a new gasket and bolts when I rebuild. I can't believe that the mechanic the guy used for the new head didn't notice the piston damage. I would say from the carbonation it isn't new. If he did see it I assume he told the previous owner. If he missed it he's blind. I suspect the former is the case and the previous owner "forgot" to mention it!
Am actually looking forward to delving further! Keep me out of trouble for 5 minutes!
Am actually looking forward to delving further! Keep me out of trouble for 5 minutes!
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Paul,
Can you show us the bores for numbers 1 & 2 cylinders?? Those bits probably didn't just hit the piston crowns before they found a way out via the exhaust
.No. 1 piston looks a bit knurled around the edges - I wouldn't be surprised if the rings were broken.
If you are really going to strip it all down I suggest a light skim of the face of the block would be a very good idea as that should prevent any possibility of a leaking gasket.
Have you got a manual that shows what goes on inside ?? There are a couple of counter-balance shafts that need to be properly timed and there is an oil cooler under a plate on the N/S behind the oil filter. This is why the cooling galleries on the N/S are blocked by the head gasket
.Take lots of photos . . This should be good
.Bob.
My pennyworth, and it may not be worth even that, the old damage to the pistons doesn't look bad enough (on its own) to warrant replacement. Of course there may be other damage, but if the engine was running well (apart from the coolant loss. then I would leave the pistons alone.
Coolant loss, if it's not escaping the system externally, either means it's going into the oil or its being pumped out of the exhaust. If it was leaking into the inlet side, then you would have hydraulicing (SPelling?) meaning drawing water into the compression, which would stop the engine from turning. (you obviously can't compress water).
You haven't complained of that and you haven't reported water in the oil, so my guess it's going out of the exhaust.
Can you get the head skimmed? this used to cure badly sealing heads for me in the past, skimmed head and new gasket, always used to work for me. JMHO of course...
Good luck!
Coolant loss, if it's not escaping the system externally, either means it's going into the oil or its being pumped out of the exhaust. If it was leaking into the inlet side, then you would have hydraulicing (SPelling?) meaning drawing water into the compression, which would stop the engine from turning. (you obviously can't compress water).
You haven't complained of that and you haven't reported water in the oil, so my guess it's going out of the exhaust.
Can you get the head skimmed? this used to cure badly sealing heads for me in the past, skimmed head and new gasket, always used to work for me. JMHO of course...
Good luck!
Here some pics of the bores.
Cylinder 1
Cylinder 2
Cylinder 3
Cylinder 4
As you can see there is some vertical scoring in all the cylinders but 1 is the worst. Here is a closer shot.
Not sure how bad or significant it is. You can feel the score in cylinder 1 and to a lesser extent 2 but it's not like you could lose your finger in it or anything.
I was hoping a good hone may be enough to sort it otherwise I guess I am looking at rebores and oversize pistons but I'm not sure I want to head down this route unless absolutely necessary.
Good news is that most of the engine is now dismantled and in my garage. Checked the turbo and all fins in place so I guess that is a positive step and rules it out as the cause of the piston damage.
With the scoring I think I definitely want the pistons out to check if they are scored. I'm wondering if a ring may have been damaged and caused the visible damage.
Whilst it's not like there is a hole in the piston or anything, I think for piece of mind I'd want to change them anyway and may keep the damaged ones as future spares that could get me out of a fix.
I've taken loads of pics and hope to do a full write up if/when i get time.
any opinions on the scoring......good or bad.
Cylinder 1
Cylinder 2
Cylinder 3
Cylinder 4
As you can see there is some vertical scoring in all the cylinders but 1 is the worst. Here is a closer shot.
Not sure how bad or significant it is. You can feel the score in cylinder 1 and to a lesser extent 2 but it's not like you could lose your finger in it or anything.
I was hoping a good hone may be enough to sort it otherwise I guess I am looking at rebores and oversize pistons but I'm not sure I want to head down this route unless absolutely necessary.
Good news is that most of the engine is now dismantled and in my garage. Checked the turbo and all fins in place so I guess that is a positive step and rules it out as the cause of the piston damage.
With the scoring I think I definitely want the pistons out to check if they are scored. I'm wondering if a ring may have been damaged and caused the visible damage.
Whilst it's not like there is a hole in the piston or anything, I think for piece of mind I'd want to change them anyway and may keep the damaged ones as future spares that could get me out of a fix.
I've taken loads of pics and hope to do a full write up if/when i get time.
any opinions on the scoring......good or bad.
Pat
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Can you get a good price for sleeving and boring at a reco shop?mind you you will need to check everything else in the block.Are there any good second hand motors available out of wrecked vehicles etc as that may be another option.In nz there is a dealer in auckland who imports good parts direct from Japan.best of luck.pat
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Paul,
Can you snag your finger nail in the scoring ?? If you can then the bores will probably need to be taken out to +20 or +30 thou.
You won't know the full extent of the damage until the pistons are out. I'll be interested to see the state of the skirts and rings. It does look as though whatever broke-up and was jumping about inside got caught at the edge of the piston and jammed against the bore.
Were there any signs of 'bits' in the sump or oil pump suction filter ??
It would be good to know what it was that did the damage - and how it got there
.
Keep up the good work.
Bob.
Can you snag your finger nail in the scoring ?? If you can then the bores will probably need to be taken out to +20 or +30 thou.
You won't know the full extent of the damage until the pistons are out. I'll be interested to see the state of the skirts and rings. It does look as though whatever broke-up and was jumping about inside got caught at the edge of the piston and jammed against the bore.
Were there any signs of 'bits' in the sump or oil pump suction filter ??
It would be good to know what it was that did the damage - and how it got there
.Keep up the good work
.Bob.
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Those scores are caused by small bits of metal trapped in the piston/bore gap where they rested on the top ring. They've probably all worn away by now. If you don't rebore you need to glaze bust the bores so the new piston rings bed in OK. You need to degrease the bores and crack test them. You can buy 2 cans for this. You spray a dye on, then wipe it off. Then you spay a white chalk developer on. A crack will be VERY obvious. You will get little marks of dye coming out even on a perfect surface so don't panic.
Just looking at the scores, if they are just marks and only just feelable I would say not to rebore but glaze bust even if you put your old pistons back. If there is hardly any up/down play in the rings the pistons don't need replacing IMO. Subject to crack testing them. Toyota new rings yes.
I used to rebuild engines in 60's through 80's and miss all the excitement!
Just looking at the scores, if they are just marks and only just feelable I would say not to rebore but glaze bust even if you put your old pistons back. If there is hardly any up/down play in the rings the pistons don't need replacing IMO. Subject to crack testing them. Toyota new rings yes.
I used to rebuild engines in 60's through 80's and miss all the excitement!
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