Diesels are cleaner than EVs

[Rodger]

A German automotive consultancy Berylls Strategy Advisors, who describe themselves as ‘the only relevant top management consulting firm working exclusively for the auto industry’ is saying that EV might not be as eco-friendly as the industries think it is.

https://wonderfulengineering.com/ne...are-much-cleaner-than-most-electric-vehicles/

These consultants are suggesting that the carbon footprint created in creating the batteries would take 10 years to offset and that is aside from the footprint created by producing the electricity to recharge them.

Talking sense? I think so and that's without them mentioning the infrastructure costs for public re-charging points, etc..

Rodger

 

[Julian T]

I have long held the opinion that electric vehicles are "clean" only if you look at the operation of the end product, however that does not offset the manufacture and recharging of the vehicle and its end of life disposal.

 

[StarCruiser]

Interesting Rodger. I too have held this belief. All it does is shift the ‘pollution’ to another place and in the case of the batteries, another time.

Carbon dioxide being the root of all evil is also, IMHO, total nonsense as plants create oxygen from it and each volcano that erupts (and we’ve had a few this year) emits more CO2 than man creates in many generations (think I read somewhere 100 years).

Particulates I hear you cry! Don’t modern vehicles have filters for them? Do cruise liners have them I wonder?

 

[clivehorridge]

I have long held the opinion that electric vehicles are "clean" only if you look at the operation of the end product, however that does not offset the manufacture and recharging of the vehicle and its end of life disposal.

At least someone is publicly expressing an interest in carrying out a full lifetime analysis comparison between the different forms of energy sources for vehicles. Trouble is, the politicians will have already decided the way to go for their own purposes, well before proper and reliable results may show the error of their ways.

I often think it may be an out-of-the-frying-pan-and-into-the-fire scenario...

 

[BobMurphy]

Whilst the lifetime impact may be worse for EVs, its the pollution in built-up areas that's the current daemon so moving the pollution somewhere else (preferably to another country) is acceptable.

Taxing vehicles to reduce use is far more attractive to Politicians than spending money on infrastructure re-engineering - with all the associated Legal shenanigans from 'Campaigners' on top of the cost of actually doing the job (think 'Fracking', high-speed rail links, nuclear power stations).

The real problem behind Global Warming, pollution, social unrest, migration, the rise of extreme right-wing politicians and so on is world over-population by humans - but no-one is going to address that can of worms.

Bob.

 

[Rob Cowell]

Carbon dioxide being the root of all evil is also, IMHO, total nonsense as plants create oxygen from it and each volcano that erupts (and we’ve had a few this year) emits more CO2 than man creates in many generations (think I read somewhere 100 years).

Think I read somewhere that the volcano thing was invented by Ian Pilmer (and very likely others), here : https://www.abc.net.au/news/2009-08-13/29320 but actual scientific papers about volcanic degassing, for example here https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S092181810200070X and here https://agupubs.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1029/2001RG000105, agree degassing is hard to measure but is somewhere between 100-400 times less than annual fossil fuel generated CO2. But Pilmer's stuff is much easier to read, even though it doesn't link to any actual research.

Plants do create Oxygen from CO2 of course, but only a finite amount. If you reduce plants and increase CO2 it does make a mess of that idea.

Agree CO2 is far from the only evil though.

 

[StarCruiser]

I guess there’s no money in stopping the wholesale removal of tropical rainforest that’s been going on for generations to grow crops such as for palm oil? We don’t hear about that or the methane generated by livestock for example.

 

[Rob Cowell]

I guess there’s no money in stopping the wholesale removal of tropical rainforest that’s been going on for generations to grow crops such as for palm oil? We don’t hear about that or the methane generated by livestock for example.

I think you have to try hard not to hear about that stuff. The IPCC report [1] that was released last week was in pretty much every newspaper and news report. It recommended eating less meat and planting forests. As well as reducing fossil fuels. And the meat stuff seamed to get at least as much press attention as the other bits.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-45775309
https://www.independent.co.uk/envir...gan-global-warming-diet-farming-a8578251.html
https://edition.cnn.com/2018/10/08/world/ipcc-climate-change-consumer-actions-intl/index.html

[1] http://www.ipcc.ch/report/sr15/

 

[clivehorridge]

I read somewhere that most of the oxygen we have in our atmosphere comes from the oceans, with only a third (or less) produced by plants.

Well I think I did, otherwise I dreamt it...

 

[Rob Cowell]

I read somewhere that most of the oxygen we have in our atmosphere comes from the oceans, with only a third (or less) produced by plants.

Well I think I did, otherwise I dreamt it...

I think it comes from plants that live in the sea, rather than the sea itself.

 

[Paddler Ed]

We don’t hear about that or the methane generated by livestock for example.

Did you know that methane from cows is emitted via their mouths? I didn't until I went to a presentation about some of the research that is being done at the university feed lot, and that was one of the things they are able to measure.

At least someone is publicly expressing an interest in carrying out a full lifetime analysis comparison between the different forms of energy sources for vehicles.

I'd had a conversation a few years ago now with someone about that, and we reached the conclusion that my (then 21 year old) 4Runner was probably less environmentally damaging than his Honda Civic Hybrid was that had battery packs giving up the ghost over the lifetime of the vehicle.

 

[chapel gate]

In danger of sounding like a broken record..
over population is ultimately the problem. Anything else is buying time/side stepping the issues.
even a good modern day human is a bad human by the very way we live our lives.
we should all move to Mars. Leave planet earth as a "nature planet"...

 

[StarCruiser]

I think I might prefer the ‘nature planet’ Mike. It sounds rather appealing, like something that might belong to Center Parcs.

 

[chapel gate]

I think I might prefer the ‘nature planet’ Mike. It sounds rather appealing, like something that might belong to Center Parcs.

Sorry rich, your not allowed. The laning on mars is epic though..

 

[StarCruiser]

Sorry rich, your not allowed. The laning on mars is epic though..

Yeah but their choice of vehicle has the word ‘Rover’ in it!!! Mind you, it has been fairly reliable with no visits from the AA that I’m aware of.

 

[chapel gate]

Yeah but their choice of vehicle has the word ‘Rover’ in it!!! Mind you, it has been fairly reliable with no bisits from the AA that I’m aware of.

And its electric! See, gone full circle there..

 

[StarCruiser]

And its electric! See, gone full circle there..

Totally, solar powered in fact.

 

[flint]

Did you know that methane from cows is emitted via their mouths? I didn't until I went to a presentation about some of the research that is being done at the university feed lot, and that was one of the things they are able to measure.

Cows do belch quite a bit. One line of research is into feedstuffs, another is that certain animals produce less, so selective breeding or gene fiddling is being considered.
The melting of the permafrost in the Arctic is more of a problem. A bit wordy, but more about this here:
http://iopscience.iop.org/article/1...sessionid=FDE1EBC6FE57DF3A3740AD48B110B710.c1

Air travel is also a big contributor that doesn't seem to get much of a mention.

 

[moggy1968]

I've been preaching this for years, the most environmentally friendly way to run a car, is to run an old one

 

[StarCruiser]

Some well presented info here. Alas it’s EV v Petrol but it does explain a few things.