Inverter question (really basic).

[wobbly]

Got my pure sine wave inverter today.

Not at all electro-techie minded so I have a few questions. Apologies if they've been answered before.

So, a few questions:

1. What does pure sine wave do that other inverters dont?

2. Where is the best place in a 95 to place it - I'm thinking under the middle seats, anyone done this. Other option will be on the side in the rear somewhere. Any other suggestions? Its a tad larger than I imagined.

3. The leads from the battery to the inverter - they look like they need to be thicker than the normal 12v wires on radios, phones etc. Is there a particular size I need?

I am reading the other thread on wiring/earthing/rcd's etc - I understand absolutely none of it, so will get some help to actually fit it.

4. Can I run it from my single battery if I keep the engine running? I can see that using it with the engine off will kill the battery quick, so am going to avoid that.

5. Would a second battery from a split charger be a good idea.

6. Where would I put the second battery? Pretty full under the bonnet.

Have I missed anything?

Cheers

Pete

 

[Justin_Elliott]

1. Standard inverters produce a coarse output similar to B-D below.... pure sine wave will be a smoothed 240 V AC output... If you try to run an electric motor off a standard they will often stutter jam or even damage the motor itself... Pure sine will be just like the AC you connect to at home.

2. I'll leave this for someone with 90's knowledge.

3. Significantly thicker. You'll need to calculate the maximum current you'd ever expose the inverter to, (including allowing a safety factor) and fuse accordingly. These wires will be exposed to significantly higher currents (say ~100A+) and you don't want them to overheat or cause additional problems.

If you're not comfortable working on these electrics - I'd definitely recommend getting a specialist to fit.

4. In principle yes, but you'll need to be wary of its power consumption. If you add a significant load to your car battery load you could easily kill it.

5. Yes

6. See 2.

Hope this helps....

 

[wobbly]

Yes, it does.

So - the real advantage of a pure sine wave inverter is when using a 240v item that has an electric motor - ie drill, fridge, etc.

Had a read on another thread discussing similar - looks like either 40 or 50 mm2 cable will be needed.

I'm def not doing it myself !

Cheers

Pete

 

[Justin_Elliott]

Yes - exactly.

To give you an idea you can easily calculate the current your inverter - battery cables would see...

Power (W) = Voltage (V) x Current (I)
Or W/V = I

So if you have a 500W inverter, this could use 900W over short periods, so 900W / 12V = 75A

The current capacity of wire is normally shown as the maximum current a wire can carry prior to melting the insulating material - so always ensure you have headroom and fuse well below the wire's physical maximum...

Also, the closer you are to the wire's maximum the more heat will be generated.. so if you bundle wires together, you should reduce the possibility of overheating neighbouring wires by applying additional factors... (i.e. if running say 2-5 wires allow an additional 20%, 6-15 an additional 30% and anything over this 50% margin).

The shorter the run, the lower the resistance, and therefore less heat generated.

 

[Crispin]

Other than what has been said, these inverters vs cheaper modified sine wave inverters have a much higher surge capability. I have a MS Ring 800W inverter which cannot ignite two 50W fluorescent tubes but the 500W does just fine.
For a while I ran the lights in my house of a 500 and could easily hold it at around 520-540W without it getting annoyed. Noisy as fan cools it but it could do it fine.

I think it was Matt who used his 2KW to run a vacuum cleaner in his truck

 

[uHu]

What hasn't been mentioned here is the loss in the 12 v cable. It is possible to have a cable which is safe, and doesn't get hot, but still with so much loss that the inverter will not operate (fully), because of the cable's length compared to conductor area.

And on the sine wave issue: I've seen power supplies for laptop computers toasting to death because of some stepped square wave inverter.

 

[Graham]

Got my pure sine wave inverter today.

Not at all electro-techie minded so I have a few questions. Apologies if they've been answered before.

So, a few questions:

1. What does pure sine wave do that other inverters dont?
1A, Justin has answered that very well, the best inverter you can get is the pure sine wave, and that 100% replicates what you have in your home.

2. Where is the best place in a 95 to place it - I'm thinking under the middle seats, anyone done this. Other option will be on the side in the rear somewhere. Any other suggestions? Its a tad larger than I imagined.
2A, I won't suggest under the middle seats, they will need decent cooling under load.
I had mine on a carpet covered wooden rear shelf, next to the opening rear side window.

3. The leads from the battery to the inverter - they look like they need to be thicker than the normal 12v wires on radios, phones etc. Is there a particular size I need?
I am reading the other thread on wiring/earthing/rcd's etc - I understand absolutely none of it, so will get some help to actually fit it.
3A, They need to be substantially thicker, again Justin has covered this base well.
I expect you will look here http://www.energy-solutions.co.uk/cable_conductor.html
As your 500 watt inverter, on full load would want about 75 amps, I suggest at a minimum, a 35 mm sq stranded cable, 50 mms sq would be better, typically the type used in welding applications.
The earthing is no science, 230 volt AC output from the inverter should feed directly to a 30mA rcd, probably a double socket, with the built in rdc, and you will be protected to the same standard as in your home.

4. Can I run it from my single battery if I keep the engine running? I can see that using it with the engine off will kill the battery quick, so am going to avoid that.
4A Depends on how much load you will draw from your inverter, if your just using small stuff, like laptop chargers, then they draw very little with no problem,
If your running a microwave, then your battery isn't going to love you.

5. Would a second battery from a split charger be a good idea.
5A Yes,

6. Where would I put the second battery? Pretty full under the bonnet.
6A Don't know

Have I missed anything?
Maybe,

Cheers

Pete

 

[ignat]

I'll add another quick question re the Inverters.

I note the Master Volt said it must be mounted vertically. Why is this, and is it absolutely necessary? Mine is mounted vertically but I want to mount it horizontally.

 

[Crispin]

What hasn't been mentioned here is the loss in the 12 v cable. It is possible to have a cable which is safe, and doesn't get hot, but still with so much loss that the inverter will not operate (fully), because of the cable's length compared to conductor area.

These have a cut out of, IIRC, 10.5V so if you have cable on the edge and long enough, it certainly will stop working. By that point though, the cable will be nice and toasty as well

I have a 1m run of 300A cable for my 2Kw inverter and at full tilt for a long time, the cable does get warm. which is bad

 

[Jon Wildsmith]

I note the Master Volt said it must be mounted vertically. Why is this, and is it absolutely necessary? Mine is mounted vertically but I want to mount it horizontally.

That'll be for heat management reasons I should think.

 

[Graham]

I note the Master Volt said it must be mounted vertically. Why is this, and is it absolutely necessary? Mine is mounted vertically but I want to mount it horizontally.

That'll be for heat management reasons I should think.

.
.
Very much what Jon has just said about heat management.
I guess you could mount it at 90 deg, nothing wrong, but then you wouln't be able to run it at any thing like it's rated output.

I guess some thing like a 50% reduction or more even for a safe output that's not going to overheat the inverter.
The fans are in the inverter to assist air flow cooling in the vertical position.

Gra.

 

[Graham]

What hasn't been mentioned here is the loss in the 12 v cable. It is possible to have a cable which is safe, and doesn't get hot, but still with so much loss that the inverter will not operate (fully), because of the cable's length compared to conductor area.

These have a cut out of, IIRC, 10.5V so if you have cable on the edge and long enough, it certainly will stop working. By that point though, the cable will be nice and toasty as well

I have a 1m run of 300A cable for my 2Kw inverter and at full tilt for a long time, the cable does get warm. which is bad

.
Hi Crispin,

Here the 2kW inverter.

I read some where that there is an external device which can communicate with the Mastervolt inverter.
The external device can program, and remotly switch on and off the inverter.
http://www.mastervolt.com/marine/produc ... 2000-230v/

General specifications
Output voltage (± 5%) = 230 V – 50 Hz (± 0.01 Hz)
Output waveform = true sine
Nominal battery voltage = 12 V
P30 power at 40 °C, cos phi 1 = 2000 W
Cont. power at 40 °C, cos phi 1 = 1800 W
Peak load = 4000 W
AC connection = internal
Efficiency = 92 %
Display/read-out = LED display
Min. battery capacity = > 200 Ah
Dimensions, hxwxd = 420x318x136 mm
Weight = 14.6 kg
Approvals = CE, E-mark, ABYC A-31
Technical specifications Technology = HF switch mode
Low battery voltage, switches off at = 10 V, ± 0.5 V Low battery voltage, switches on at = 11 V, ± 0.5 V
High battery voltage, switches off at = 15.5 V, ± 0.5 V
High battery voltage, switches on at = 14.5 V, ± 0.5 V
Max. ripple on DC (battery) = 5% RMS
Input current (nominal load) = 183 A
No-load power consumption (ON mode) = 480 mA – 6 W
No-load power consumption (standby mode) = 50 mA – 0.6 W
Min. DC fuse (slow blow) = 250 A
Min. cable size = 70 mm²
Harmonic distortion typical = < 5%
Cos phi = all power factors allowed
Transfer system = the Masterswitch and Systemswitch can be connected to all sine wave inverters
Temperature range (ambient temp.) = -25 °C to 80 °C, derating > 40 °C
Cooling = natural/forced
Sound level = 48 dBA at 1 mtr
Protection degree = IP23
Protections = over temperature, over load, short circuit, high battery, low battery
MasterBus compatible = yes, using a MasterBus Inverter Interface or AC power analyser

http://www.mastervolt.com/marine/produc ... nterfaces/

I can't find the remote device now, I did find it once on the internet.


Gra.

 

[warrenpfo]

Mine arrived yesterday and the first thing I did was start to take it apart.

On removing the bottom panel to get to the internal connection points I noticed 2 little blue dials with arrows on and 2 jumpers the same type you used to get on hard drives to change them from slave to master.

I removed the 2 jumpers not know what they where for and now have no idea which pins they go back on.

Any advice welcome and sorry to digress

 

[TonyP]

Mine arrived yesterday and the first thing I did was start to take it apart.

On removing the bottom panel to get to the internal connection points I noticed 2 little blue dials with arrows on and 2 jumpers the same type you used to get on hard drives to change them from slave to master.

I removed the 2 jumpers not know what they where for and now have no idea which pins they go back on.

Any advice welcome and sorry to digress

You big eejit. which one did you buy, I can take a look and mine (if it's the same) and check where they should go!

 

[warrenpfo]

Thanks its the big daddy. 2k

 

[TonyP]

Ok, give me a few mins and I will go and check...

 

[Andrew Prince]

Who else is waiting for Tony to come back and report that there are now 2 x 2kw inverters out of commission?

 

[Crushers]

the build i am doing now:
http://forum.ih8mud.com/70-series-tech/ ... tions.html
the gent is building a street legal "work shop". we are adding a 1750 inverter to the system with a stand alone 200 amp alternator (that also doubles as a welder). i looked into the inverters and started with a 3000W modified inverter but it is too deep for the rear door so we had to step down to a 1750W to get the clearences needed.
anyway, i ramble.
the pure sine is needed for TV, and most modern house hold gadgets but for skill saws, drills etc the modified is perfectly fine.
you need 2" of free air movement around the unit when in use.
you should not have the open ends where dust, dirt, moisture can get inside.
the requirement for the feed cables for this unit is 6 ga but i will be running 4 ga since the inverter is installed 9' from the batteries.
the longer the distance the larger the recommended cables to be.

there is a fire hazzard so make sure you take this into consideration when mounting the unit.

that is what i have learned so far, i am far from an expert on these but i have been consulting with one that is.

take this info with a pound of salt.
cheers

 

[TonyP]

Right, took a look and basically on mine none of the pins are linked. The jumpers are only connected to one pin, as they say pics speak a 1000 words:

 

[Jon Wildsmith]

Any advice welcome and sorry to digress

Take pictures before you take things apart in future or don't take them apart. Well you did ask for advice