My battery is behaving strangely and probably dead - need a 2nd opinion please

[chadr]

As thread title suggests, my battery has been behaving very strangely over the past week or so....... the battery is a E44 Varta "Silver Dynamic " 77Ah, bought and fitted in June 2018 from Tanya Batteries and has never given any issues previously. The 90 hasn't been used as much as before due to lockdown etc. but it has still been out and about at least once a week for journeys of around 30-40 mins /15-20 miles or more and always started on the first turn of the key.

About a week ago, I tried to start the 90 and the battery was so flat that the ignition tell-tale lights would barely illuminate. The starter didn't even "click" or make a sound. So out comes the trusty CTEK MXS 5.0 charger and connected it up in-situ, putting the charger on the "car" +"recon" mode and left it overnight. When I checked in the next morning the CTEK's red "error" light was on and it was showing that it had only got to stage 3 (Bulk charge - 80%).

It was very windy that day, enough to sway the car, I thought that a connection may have come loose and caused the short/error - I've been using the CTEK on our cars (and neighbour's) for a few years and I've never seen that error before . So I removed the battery from the car, brought it indoors, plugged the charger in and left it overnight, again.

In the morning the error light had come on and it had got to the same stage 3 - so exactly the same as before. At this point, though I thought that the battery was dead beyond recovery, I fitted it back in the car - thinking that if I needed to move the 90, I could always jumpstart. In the meantime I did some googling /YT, which suggested it might be worth checking the alternator. So armed with a digital multimeter (good ol' Amazon 1-day delivery) I did the following tests with readings;

Checked the battery before any draw : 6.9-7/0V (which seems to suggest it's dead!)
Jump-started the car and at initial (raised) idle : 14.2-14.4V
Raised engine rpm to 2500 : 14.2-14.4V
Put some load on alternator (lights, radio, fan etc) : 13.8-14.0V
Back to idle and no load : 14.0-14.2V

I left the engine running at around 1500 rpm for 5-10mins and the reading was pretty steady at around 14.2V

Switched off the engine and checked the battery, now reading 12.9V
I switched on the headlights for 20 secs and the reading dropped to 12.7V
Tried to start the car and it fired up instantly, I left engine on 1500rpm for a few mins and switched off, still reading 12.7V

So I come back to the car in 2 hrs and tried to start it - now back to day 1 - i.e. not even enough juice to light up the ignition tell-tales and not even a "click" from the starter. Battery voltage reading is now 8.9/9.0V. WTF!

Hopefully the above suggests that my alternator is OK and it is a genuinely duff battery - Varta provide a 5 year guarantee, so I emailed Tanya Batteries with this info a few days ago but have not received a response yet.

Sorry for the rambling post

 

[karl2000]

Hmm...

Has your ctek mxs5 got the alternator testing function? I've got two mxs5's - one has and one hasn't! something else you can use to test if your box has it.

Those alternator voltages sound spot on to me, so i dont think its the alternator

I wonder if something is causing a parasitic battery drain or a short. It might be worth measuring the current draw from the battery while everything is off, and see how many amps (hopefully mA!) its pulling. You'd need to give it 15-20 mins for all the computers to shut down and go into a sleep state so you can get a true reading. I'm sure you're used to using the multimeter, suffice to say for measuring current your leads will be plugged into different holes on the meter, and it needs to be connected in series....

If you have access to a battery load tester that could confirm if the battery has gone - I suspect thats what they will check when you send it back.

I suspect you're right though, it does sound like a knackered battery to me.

 

[chadr]

Thanks for the response karl2000.

My CTEK MXS 5.0 doesn't have the alternator testing function.

I don't think there is a parasitic drain on the battery either - I don't have any ancillary equipment or mods. Also this is a 1997 Landcruiser Colarado, so not much in the way of electronics compared to a modern car.

I check the draw anyway - will lookup the multimeter settings etc.

Thanks again.

 

[MisterCruiser]

Would you not have been better just charging the battery in supply mode rather than the recon mode, you could still try the supply mode and see if it completes and holds a charge of 12.6v for longer then.

Another way to test the alternator is to disconnect the battery earth lead when it's running, it should stay running if alternator is good.
I believe it's ok to do this on our old landcruisers, I wouldn't recommend it on newer yokes.

 

[chadr]

I did try recharging in supply mode after the failures in recon mode - it was the same result. The error light came on when it got to stage 3.

So no difference, unfortunately.

 

[Tel Boy]

Sorry for the rambling post

It wasn't at all. A perfect description of the problem and your investigations. Saves asking a whole load of questions.

I suspect you're right though, it does sound like a knackered battery to me.

Yep, me too! I would be very surprised if it was anything else, after everything you have looked at.

2 years is shocking. Definitely a case for money back. I bought a battery from Tayna last year and won't use them again. What they sent me was not as described on their website, it's an old fashioned top-up type battery and not the sealed for life type they said it was. I'm still using it because it works OK, but I didn't like the way it was packed, either. Next time I will go back to using these guys, who I have always found to be excellent - Varta G8 Car Battery (595 405 095) | ABS Batteries - [Leaving Land Cruiser Club]

 

[StarCruiser]

As above your post was excellent. Your alternator seems fine.
Please, nobody disconnect a battery while a vehicle is running. The alternator will immediately spike voltage and could destroy any electronics present. Also if your battery is accepting charge and you are unlucky enough to have hydrogen present, you could explode your battery.

It does sound as though your battery is dead. However, try disconnecting it, charging it and seeing if you get the same voltage drop with it disconnected. There may be a parasitic drain. Do you have a trailer socket? Sometimes the beeper relays get fitted behind the rear light clusters and get wet if there’s a leak. We’ve had some heavy rain recently.

Id try a DC clamp ammeter rather than putting the meter in circuit. The latter is fine for small loads but don’t get absent minded and try and start It or you’ll have some fireworks from your meter. Or a blown fuse if it’s a good one.

The Ctek does seem to indicate a faulty battery though. Vartas are very good batteries as are Bosch (same manufacturer).

 

[chadr]

Thanks SC and TB.

I'll do some more investigation around possible parasitic drain - I don't think it is that but never say never.

Also, I'm still waiting on Tanya Batteries to respond to my query. Assuming they agree with the diagnosis, I'm not sure what their policy is - simply send me a replacement or a refund, I'm not sure whether I have a choice(?). I might have some more info by the time they reply.

Hopefully they will reply Tues as I'd like to get the Collie back on the road, though thankfully I'm not in a huge rush.

Thanks again, will keep you posted.

 

[Dave2000]

As thread title suggests, my battery has been behaving very strangely over the past week or so....... the battery is a E44 Varta "Silver Dynamic " 77Ah, bought and fitted in June 2018 from Tanya Batteries and has never given any issues previously. The 90 hasn't been used as much as before due to lockdown etc. but it has still been out and about at least once a week for journeys of around 30-40 mins /15-20 miles or more and always started on the first turn of the key.

About a week ago, I tried to start the 90 and the battery was so flat that the ignition tell-tale lights would barely illuminate. The starter didn't even "click" or make a sound. So out comes the trusty CTEK MXS 5.0 charger and connected it up in-situ, putting the charger on the "car" +"recon" mode and left it overnight. When I checked in the next morning the CTEK's red "error" light was on and it was showing that it had only got to stage 3 (Bulk charge - 80%).

It was very windy that day, enough to sway the car, I thought that a connection may have come loose and caused the short/error - I've been using the CTEK on our cars (and neighbour's) for a few years and I've never seen that error before . So I removed the battery from the car, brought it indoors, plugged the charger in and left it overnight, again.

In the morning the error light had come on and it had got to the same stage 3 - so exactly the same as before. At this point, though I thought that the battery was dead beyond recovery, I fitted it back in the car - thinking that if I needed to move the 90, I could always jumpstart. In the meantime I did some googling /YT, which suggested it might be worth checking the alternator. So armed with a digital multimeter (good ol' Amazon 1-day delivery) I did the following tests with readings;

Checked the battery before any draw : 6.9-7/0V (which seems to suggest it's dead!)
Jump-started the car and at initial (raised) idle : 14.2-14.4V
Raised engine rpm to 2500 : 14.2-14.4V
Put some load on alternator (lights, radio, fan etc) : 13.8-14.0V
Back to idle and no load : 14.0-14.2V

I left the engine running at around 1500 rpm for 5-10mins and the reading was pretty steady at around 14.2V

Switched off the engine and checked the battery, now reading 12.9V
I switched on the headlights for 20 secs and the reading dropped to 12.7V
Tried to start the car and it fired up instantly, I left engine on 1500rpm for a few mins and switched off, still reading 12.7V

So I come back to the car in 2 hrs and tried to start it - now back to day 1 - i.e. not even enough juice to light up the ignition tell-tales and not even a "click" from the starter. Battery voltage reading is now 8.9/9.0V. WTF!

Hopefully the above suggests that my alternator is OK and it is a genuinely duff battery - Varta provide a 5 year guarantee, so I emailed Tanya Batteries with this info a few days ago but have not received a response yet.

Sorry for the rambling post

Battery is toast by the look of it. It is easy to destroy a battery overnight by leaving something on and flattening it. If it is left oo long with no charge it will be damaged.

Alternator output is fine although a failing diode will allow the battery to drain through the alternator, no comment on the CTEK other than it appears to be detecting a shorted cell?

I would never disconnect a battery with the engine running....ever.

I note you say 'no parasitic draw'? So you have no clock or radio or alarm or ECU, if you answer yes to any of them then you have parasitic draw.


regards

Dave

 

[chadr]

Thanks Dave.

The thing is that the battery wasn't left for a long time - just the same as in previous week's/months, I have a regular single weekly trip of around 35-40 miles that I always do in the Collie regardless, hence my surprise at how it "suddenly" went flat.

Of course you're right about parasitic drain - the Collie does have a clock etc. What I should have said was that I don't think it has any unusual or extra parasitic drain, that a standard battery should be able to cope with.

I'll check the battery status tomorrow and report back .

 

[Dave2000]

Sudden battery failure is the most common mode here in Spain, start up drive to the shops come out battery dead! With the 80 in 24v form if one battery cell connection fails the car is not going to start.....period! It could have been caused by a pothole causing a fracture in a weak area of the honeycomb under the battery cells.

regards

Dave