Petition -remove asbestos from schools.

[StarCruiser]

Ok, I'm willing to think there are some blunt instruments involved here with surveys etc, but I heard about asbestos board being used in schools 10-15 years ago and was horrified that what I had thought was an asbestos substitute board actually contained it. Notice boards, corridor lining that kids would brush up against, bore holes in, scrape lines along. I remember it from when I was at school but never gave it a second thought.

Anyway, there's a petition to have it removed from our schools;- 'you mean it hasn't been removed yet!?' I hear you say.

1 fibre is all it takes. Some 10 years ago the building firm I was on had the contracts manager go on an asbestos awareness course. The advice, - if you discover it, walk away. Sign if you want to. Ta.

https://you.38degrees.org.uk/petiti...sure-in-schools?bucket=email-blast-23_1_2018_

 

[clivehorridge]

It is a disgrace and I’ve signed.

TBH, 38 degrees can be a bit tedious, but in this case and a few others, I’ve made an exception.

Good ‘n Rich

 

[Chas]

Signed Rich. As an apprentice in 1959 I worked on a site in South Kensington in a boiler house where all the pipework was being insulated with a substance they mixed up in the boiler house, it was some sort of fibre with asbestos powder it's been a wonder to me that I never, so far, was affected by it.

 

[Chris]

An outrage of course, but little technical info on ACMs just for background. In some cases removing it is far worse than either leaving it be, or covering it over. Remember some poor sod has to do the removing. And with LAs being cash strapped, just imagine who they might get to do the work. Not all asbestos is as hazardous as others. yep, they're all asbestos. But take your Grandad's old Pudsey Concrete garage roof. It's bonded asbestos cement. Leave it alone, perfectly safe. AIB (the stuff Rich mentioned) bad news if drilled or disturbed. But if it's in a cavity somewhere, mark it up and leave it be. So I'm just saying, before you wish for something, it's better to know some more of the facts. Unnecessary removal or treatment of Asbestos Containing Materials can do more harm than good. What is already a requirement under UK law is for all employers (the school) to know exactly where its ACMs are, what type they are and what state they're in. I'm not sure a petition is actually needed. Everywhere falls under the related regulation which dictates what you MUST do. And that included removal if deemed necessary. Not do adhere to this is a criminal offence. A breach that the authorities are very very keen to prosecute over. And they do.

There are schools in places like Leeds (where huge amounts of ACM were produced) that physically had to be closed down because the fibres were inches deep under the floors. Kids used to play with it in the streets like snow. It's tragic and still killing people even now. It's said that deaths from asbestos related diseases haven't actually peaked yet. Given the 30 year latency period.

The single fibre theory is just that. It's actually factually correct but flawed in terms of probability. It came from a case where instances of occupational asbestos related illness might have been triggered whilst working for several different employers. Who should compensate the worker? Medical science agreed that it could be as little as one fibre responsible for triggering Mesothelioma. Technically it could. With that in mind, which employer owned that fibre? Now the bloke who postulated this theory was absolutely PRO employee, but he was also PRO justice. And therein lay the conflict. Because civil cases (compensation etc) were based on the balance of probability, it simply wasn't fair to employers to saddle them with liability that may well not have been theirs.

Effectively therefore the precedent set made it incredibly difficult for anyone suffering asbestos related cancer to make a claim. So yes one fibre can technically begin that chain of events in the body, but it could be the very first or the thousandth and there's simply no way of knowing. Some people exposed never contracted it at all.

One thing that did come from all of this was the change in the way claims are handled. Shockingly it's cheaper to compensate the widow than it is to compensate the employer whilst they're alive. Given that death usually occurs within 6 months of diagnosis, employers were prevaricating until the funeral before paying out. Now that truly is deplorable. So the changes effectively gave the employer about 21 days to respond to a claim. If they failed to do so within the time limit then they lost the case.

I'm not advocating signing or not signing - just adding some thoughts.

 

[Towpack]

The dangers of asbestos were first recognised back in the 1930's. As Chris has pointed out, asbestos and the handling/disturbing of it is tightly regulated. We've had asbestos awareness training at work due to the probability of encountering it in old buildings. Where asbestos is known to exist, assuming it's encapsulated, it must be clearly labelled to avoid accidental disturbance. My Dad passed away last July from Ideopathic Pulmonary Fibrosis. In his younger days he served his national service as a fire fighter on board aircraft carriers when they wore asbestos fireproof clothing. In civvy street he then worked for a fire equipment company when fire blankets and fire hose were made from asbestos. There was extensive asbestos scarring in his lungs but, according to the consultant specialist, narrowing it down to one particular period of exposure was virtually impossible.

 

[StarCruiser]

Chris, thank you. I stopped short of saying some of what you've said. Mainly that there is often a better case for leaving be, than for removal. It is a constant nag in the back of my mind that somewhere in my job I could run into fibrous asbestos. Asbestos cement board is all around and relatively safe, the fibrous stuff on the other hand. I had always assumed that no new asbestos products were being sold when I first started work. I read somewhere it was still being sold and used I think into this century. I hope I'm one of the lucky ones. I know I've not been well enough informed of where dangers lie, early enough to avoid exposure.

My father even used stuff called Fillplug rather than plastic rawlplugs. It was a pot of asbestos fibre.

I too am not sure a petition is the right thing but if it gets the information such as you've provided out into the public domain, maybe it's worth it, as often the public are unaware of what measures are taken to minimise such hazards.

 

[moggy1968]

I agree with much of the above from Chris et al. This has overtones of excessive hysteria. Many of these petitions lack insight, research, structure or specificity. They lack specific terms of reference and tend to latch on to an emotive subject with emotive language that lacks evidential base.

Incidentally, asbestos is not just in old buildings, it was in use up until the 1980s I think, and can be found in things like artex ceilings. The risk is when it is drilled into (properly drilled into, not brushed up against or some kid pissing about with a pencil), or damaged or removed so bear that in mind next time your fixiing a new light fitting!! Also electrical backboards were made out of it and some woodchip wallpapers. I've found it hidden under sofit boards and in lofts, so there is probably a greater (thought still extremely minimal) risk to children from dad doing a spot of diy. In most cases, as above, it is fine left in situ. We see a lot of it in the hospital in Portsmouth where I work occasionally. Shipyard workers used to nick it to insulate their houses! TBH there are much bigger issues in education right now.

 

[iow_bob]

My friend works for the NHS and looks after people with learning difficulties .
One bloke is in his 60's but he has a mental age of a 6 year old .

So they live in a specially adapted house that the NHS bought about 20 years ago .
Now about 6 months ago they got someone in to put shelves up in the office .
The bloke who came said I'm not drilling these walls he was very vague as to why and he left . Couple of weeks passed and a team came out and took samples of the walls .

Just before Christmas my friend and all the rest of the team were told that the NHS were closing the house down and they would find alternative accommodation for the residents.
This is because the walls are a mix of plaster and asbestos ( apparently done in the 60's to fire proof houses )
The house is worth about 250k / 300k and apparently would cost far to much to remove all the plaster etc .

So last week the house closed it's doors and my friend has been moved to another house with different staff and residents some 30 miles from home .
Other place was a5 min walk .

So before signing take a long think about what would happen if they find anything in any schools . They would be closed instantly and thousands of children affected.

Yes I understand asbestos ain't good but if it's been there for 20 years it can't be that badly placed

 

[Chas]

Digressing slightly but has anyone else noticed that since this thread started there are ads appearing on this site for asbestos testing kits, not that I have a problem with that but I don't like being spied on.

 

[Chris]

The principal problem with leaving it in situ - I know I said it was a good option - is people. There's nowt so thick as folk.
So get this completely true story. I worked for a multi site, national company and one of the sites was prosecuted for infringements of the asbestos regulations. No one was exposed so it was a technical breach.
In order to raise awareness of course everyone had 'training. ' So imagine my face when I turned up on site for a look at the progress to find new notices that said
"Warning this wall contains asbestos. Do not cut, drill or puncture"

Ok so a bit home made but to the point. Now take a guess at how they'd affixed the notices to the walls?

You have to save people from themselves sometimes and having signs and permits etc are all very well, but they can so often be beaten purely by human stupidity. No one was going to really be exposed here, but this was a location that had been prosecuted and this was their response.

Yes asbestos stopped being used in buildings in the 1980s. There is an HSE figure somewhere that totals up the tonnage still out there. It's huge.

 

[Towpack]

It is a constant nag in the back of my mind that somewhere in my job I could run into fibrous asbestos.

I know for a fact that a work colleague and I were exposed back in the early 80's as we had to sign an 'asbestos register' at work but there's no point worrying about it. Get over it and move on. That's all you can do.

 

[flint]

One source of asbestos which many people over a certain age will probably have been exposed to, in cities at least, came from vehicle brakes and clutches. The use of asbestos was banned in such products in 1999.

 

[clivehorridge]

Whilst appreciating the above comments, the ultimate goal of the realization from as far back as the 60s, has to be to stop using it in construction, and then programme its systematic removal from the buildings affected.

This may take 100 years, or more, but the programme has to be in place and functioning. I’ll bet any money that the programme for public buildings either doesn’t exist or that it’s not being put into practice.

I accept that public funds may not be available, but some money has to be made available to get this programme on the move.

My school was brand new, big and modern, state of the art in the early 60s, it accommodated some 2,500 children. Last year it was demolished barely older than 50 years, and nobody in the locale knows why. It’s likely that it was affected by this problem, but it’s not public knowledge, there certainly was no admission of knowledge of it up to when I left the building in 1971.

I’d like to see more transparency, “these are buildings affected, here they are on the programme, we have little spare money so it will take 100 years” OK, not good, but at least the public will know that something is being done.

At the moment, I imagine that nothing is being done to target this problem, and those that know are keeping it hush hush, hoping that everyone will forget about it, which may (or may not) have been the case for the last 50-60 years.

The main problem is nobody knows, only the authorities themselves, and they stay mum, which is wrong. Public buildings, public money, a public problem, yet no publicly available information.

I haven’t studied this, but I’ll support any action that might expose this problem, it’s been too long under the mat.

JMHO

 

[Shayne]

We were half way through demolishing this place

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all the floorboards were gone , all the ceilings , we used chainsaws to cut through all the Lat and plaster walls letting them fall onto the exposed floors joists of the floor below to smash them up , then go down smash what was left through the joists with a sledgehammer , the dust often made it impossible to see .
And then one day a bunch of spacemen walked in , they filled the back of a pickup truck with the largest remaining chunks of plaster that they could find in the basements and left .

Asbestos was the rumour that circulated but we were never told , we were working right alongside the spacemen . I guess the paperwork was signed absolving everyone of responsibility and that was that .

I seen the petition moments after it was posted and decided against signing it simply because as a country we are struggling to keep schools open .

 

[StarCruiser]

I have to agree with much of this on both sides. The trouble is, if there's a fire the asbestos is released and likely distributed over a wide area.

As I said initially, there's blunt instruments in use here, the petition being one. I was told (ready to be proved wrong) that Asbestolux and Masterboard that were on sale and in use into this century did actually contain asbestos. These are the ones or similar that were used as notice boards and corridor linings. Chris's point about saving the stupid from themselves is a good one. Kids may not be stupid as such but they know no better so schools, in my view, need to have the areas reachable by the kids free of it. This may already be the case. The demolition of your school Clive was likely part of the PFI funded program to replace every school in the country.

Fortunately I have other things to concern me, I don't worry about this constantly. It just pops up occasionally. Que Serra Serra.

 

[flint]

Apologies for going off the subject of the petition a bit, but what strikes me is why so many schools had asbestos in them in the first place. Handy stuff, but the dangers, especially with the blue variety, were known long ago, the death rate amongst those involved with the mining of it in Africa and Australia etc. were huge. The biggest firm in the UK (Turner and Newall) was very active in suppressing information and political lobbying to keep selling it. When the proverbial hit the fan, they ducked the bullet by going under, taking most of the pension fund with them.

 

[StarCruiser]

Apologies for going off the subject of the petition a bit, but what strikes me is why so many schools had asbestos in them in the first place. Handy stuff, but the dangers, especially with the blue variety, were known long ago, the death rate amongst those involved with the mining of it in Africa and Australia etc. were huge. The biggest firm in the UK (Turner and Newall) was very active in suppressing information and political lobbying to keep selling it. When the proverbial hit the fan, they ducked the bullet by going under, taking most of the pension fund with them.

Why does this not surprise me!

I guess in fairness, the dangers weren't known at least for some considerable time and as has been mentioned, some compounds of it are very low risk. The major damage clearly has been done and much is down to awareness now to avoid the danger. For all it's faults, this petition…and this thread…is increasing awareness.

 

[StarCruiser]

Digressing slightly but has anyone else noticed that since this thread started there are ads appearing on this site for asbestos testing kits, not that I have a problem with that but I don't like being spied on.

I've not had it. Mine seems to want me to buy a tracksuit of all things and keeps offering me this as part of an eBay montage.

Thing is, I can't seem to see the other 5 tiles on their ad.

 

[frank rabbets]

In the 60's I wanted to saw some asbestos sheets up. My wood saw was useless so I went down the hardware shop and bought a purpose made asbestos saw. It comprised a blade about 3mm thick which was unbendable and had hardened teeth. I don't think they do them any more. lol.

 

[StarCruiser]

In the 60's I wanted to saw some asbestos sheets up. My wood saw was useless so I went down the hardware shop and bought a purpose made asbestos saw. It comprised a blade about 3mm thick which was unbendable and had hardened teeth. I don't think they do them any more. lol.

They make something similar for cutting lightweight concreate 'thermalite' blocks.