Problems in Wales.

[Roger Fairclough]

After the wettest summer on record, continued use of fragile by-ways in Powys has resulted in the council applying to downgrade two classics, "Water Break it's Neck" and "Moelfre City".

You may object to the closures by writing (no emails will be accepted) to:-

Mark Stafford-Tolley

Head of Legal Scrutiny and Democratic Services (Law and Governance).

County Hall.

Llandrindod Wells.

Powys

LD1 5LG

Please reconsider any planned trips into Wales, or anywhere else, where damage beyond natural recovery will result. Further damage will only result in further action by the councils concerned.

Roger Fairclough

GLASS rep. for Warwickshire and Tread lightly Ambassador.

 

[Ben]

Continued use?

They've been TRO'd for years!

 

[AndyCook]

yes i thought they were closed already
as i came across them in lanes research, then found out they were closed...

 

[Roger Fairclough]

Continued use?

They've been TRO'd for years!

There is a difference between a TRO and an application to downgrade. A TRO is for a period of time to allow either nature to heal the damage or for a council to repair it. The end result should see the route re-opened.

An application to downgrade, in this case to bridleway, will see all rights for motor vehicles erased.

I am not just asking for consideration for these two lanes, but for ALL lanes that can be damaged by thoughtless use.

Roger

 

[AndyCook]

but "continued use of fragile by-ways in Powys has resulted in the council applying to downgrade two classics"

implies that people have been driving it even though it has a TRO ?

 

[Ben]

I realise that Roger!

Looks like Andy understood what i meant.

If people have been continuing to drive those lanes while there TRO'd, then closing them completely is unlikely to have any effect.

Laws only effect people who abide by them.

 

[Roger Fairclough]

but "continued use of fragile by-ways in Powys has resulted in the council applying to downgrade two classics"

implies that people have been driving it even though it has a TRO ?

Do you want to argue the point about the reason the council will apply for the downgrade, or do you want to stand up for your rights and complain about the councils decision?

The wording I have used is taken from the councils statement.

Roger

 

[Roger Fairclough]

I realise that Roger!

Looks like Andy understood what i meant.

If people have been continuing to drive those lanes while there TRO'd, then closing them completely is unlikely to have any effect.

Laws only effect people who abide by them.

You obviously haven't realised Ben, or you would understand that if Powys Council get away with this, it will be fuel for all councils to apply for downgrades on any or all unsurfaced routes with vehicular rights.

User Groups in The Peak District, incl. GLASS and the TRF, recently staged a demonstration to advise local people of the National Parks decision to close certain routes within the park. There will be further demonstrations.

If we don't fight for our rights, we will loose them.

Roger

 

[warrenpfo]

Roger

I think we all understand what you are trying to say and could not agree with you more BUT…

If the lanes have already been TOR'ed for who knows how long and they have not "self healed/repaired" and yet the council is still able to apply to have them downgraded what was the point in having them TRO'ed in the first place?

It would seem that even if the council take action to allow the lanes to "repair on their own" it does not seem to be enough and rather than spending the money to repair them they just going to get them downgraded which makes no sense unless they will repair them once they have been downgraded which makes no sense if no one is going to be able to use them.

It’s a bit of a catch 22 as they clearly have not repaired on their own so unless the council is prepared to spend the money what was the point in closing them in the first place if it was not strictly enforced or did they hope some kind of miracle was going to happen.

You may be able to answer the question and maybe it was a case of people still driving the lanes even though they were TRO'ed in which case the 4x4 community has brought the decision on themselves is my opinion.
And no amount of protest is going to help.
My2c

 

[Roger Fairclough]

Roger

I think we all understand what you are trying to say and could not agree with you more BUT…

If the lanes have already been TOR'ed for who knows how long and they have not "self healed/repaired" and yet the council is still able to apply to have them downgraded what was the point in having them TRO'ed in the first place?

It would seem that even if the council take action to allow the lanes to "repair on their own" it does not seem to be enough and rather than spending the money to repair them they just going to get them downgraded which makes no sense unless they will repair them once they have been downgraded which makes no sense if no one is going to be able to use them.

It’s a bit of a catch 22 as they clearly have not repaired on their own so unless the council is prepared to spend the money what was the point in closing them in the first place if it was not strictly enforced or did they hope some kind of miracle was going to happen.

You may be able to answer the question and maybe it was a case of people still driving the lanes even though they were TRO'ed in which case the 4x4 community has brought the decision on themselves is my opinion.
And no amount of protest is going to help.
My2c

Your attitude is what will, ultimately, see the demise of legal laning in this country.

You know what's coming but all you want to do is argue over what the council/s have already done to stop us.

You have given up without even trying.

Shame on you.

Roger

 

[adrianr]

We all appreciate the gravity of the situation and am sure we are all grateful for it being brought to our attention.

Everyone is entitled to their opinions and are free to make there own choices as to how they should respond, not respond or to make whatever comments they see fit in this a free forum.

It is too much to persuade / bully everyone into ones own opinion since that is all it is. We see things most clearly from our own perspective and observational viewpoint. And no one here has appointed anyone guru who's opinions must at all times be respected and honoured.

Perhaps Roger it is best to express one's self and ones concerns and allow others to do that as well without making such strong comments. Otherwise, and with no disrespect intended, it will be shame on you. Thank you once again for bringing this to our attention and for the suggestions made as to appropriate action as you see them.

 

[warrenpfo]

Fair call Roger the difference is that I am not one to complain when they do close a lane.

I guess I am more of an overlander than a laner and if I want to get my offroad kicks I am happy to go to mainland Europe or Africa to get them.

I do however wish you all the best in your quest and hope the outcome is what you wish it to be.

 

[Roger Fairclough]

I asked for people to write a letter.

I find the response to be frighteningly complacent.

I will say no more on the subject.

Roger

 

[Graham]

Another nail in the coffin.

Perhaps another (small) reason to vacate UK. ?

Gra.

 

[Ben]

Another nail in the coffin.

Perhaps another (small) reason to vacate UK. ?

Gra.

Agreed!

I think its important to object and fight any planned closures, but I do feel its a loosing battle.

IMHO more should have been done years ago to stop NERC and CROW getting through parliament!

Another thing I love about OZ........................

The government is trying to close tracks and theres a huge campaign going on to stop it!

www.dontlockupaustralia.com.au

 

[Graham]

Agreed!

I think its important to object and fight any planned closures, but I do feel its a loosing battle.

IMHO more should have been done years ago to stop NERC and CROW getting through parliament!

Another thing I love about OZ........................

The government is trying to close tracks and theres a huge campaign going on to stop it!

www.dontlockupaustralia.com.au

.
Fully agree,

The fight in the UK is sadly too late in the coming.
The "bobble hats" have won.
How long before the very last lane is shut, just a matter of time I am afraid.
There will be no lanes for motor vehicles.
It will all be Pay and Play.

A far cry from the likes of France, Spain, South Africa, Australia, and dare I say that even China has thousands upon thousands of miles of off road track, where you can play to your hearts content, and no one is going to do or say any thing about it.

Gra.

 

[Jon Wildsmith]

IMHO more should have been done years ago to stop NERC and CROW getting through parliament!

What more would you have done then Ben?

 

[Ben]

What more would you have done then Ben?

A campaign similar to what is happening in Australia for a start!

I know its not as popular hobby as it is in OZ so it would have probably been on a smaller scale.

They should have started a petition and had some of the thousands of people who go to all the 4x4/landrover shows signing it and supporting it. Even if green laning isnt something that you personally do, Im sure most people would oppose having another of their rights removed.

Ive often thought the various groups such as GLASS, CRAG, TRF, tread lightly etc. would be a lot stronger and more effective if they all came together under one title!

From the research I've done, very little was done to oppose/stop the NERC and CROW act's getting through parliament.

 

[Roger Fairclough]

[/QUOTE]

Ive often thought the various groups such as GLASS, CRAG, TRF, tread lightly etc. would be a lot stronger and more effective if they all came together under one title!

[/QUOTE]

It's called LARA Ben and the question still stands, "what would YOU have done", not what would you expect everyone else to do.

Roger

 

[Ben]

I dont think I explained myself very well Roger, apologies.

It appears youve misunderstood what I've said once again!

What I mean is all the organisations join together under one name, and so all the other groups would no longer exist, as it would all be one. Clearly that isnt the case with LARA, as the others still exist.

As for what would I have done..........................................

Lets pretend for a moment that NERC and CROW were yet to happen and we were all happily enjoying the thousands of miles of rights of way which were still open to vehicles.

It comes to light that the government is trying to get NERC and CROW through parliament which will ultimately sound the end for our hobby of green laning.

Who ever noticed/heard about this terrible thing would post it up on this very forum aswell as other im sure.

We would all discuss it and all come together to fight it!

A plan of attack would be worked out and together we would do our best to stop it.

OK, OK I know Roger by reading this far your just itching to type some thing like "but you havnt answered the question Ben"!


So I would put all my time, effort and money behind the campaign. Id write letters, attend rallies and protests, collect signatures, and help with fund raising so that the correct legal representation could be hired!

I'm a very determined person and I dont give up easily, especially when whats against me would have such a devastating effect on something I love and am very passionate about!

Youve been laning for many years Roger.

So what did YOU do when CROW and NERC came about?