Product of choice for rust?

[majic79]

Phosphoric acid is all thats in those rust converter products, your friendly dairy farmer has gallons of the stuff - It known at Milk Stone Remover. it costs about £1 a litre or free if you know a farmer

Awesome tip - going to have a word with one of my friendly local farmers and give it a try!

 

[clivehorridge]

Sorry guys, my comment to Shayne was tongue in cheek. I thought he was asking the question as a joke, surely he wasn't serious????
I didn't think anyone would take the comment seriously!! Paint away to your hearts content, no prison awaits.

Well Lazz, the UK Does have some strange ones so it wasn't that stupid to take it seriously (was it?) say no please to save my embarrassment!!

In the old days many of us pop riveted bean cans over holes in sills and floor pans and with a liberal dose of underseal we would scrape through MOT tests...

It could have been a legal reaction to that sort of behavior!

I still can't believe I took that seriously! Nice one!

 

[clivehorridge]

It's a competitive reaction - to convert rust back to iron, you have to remove the oxygen. Pure Phosphor spontaneously combust on exposure to air, so it really wants to bond with oxygen. You paint phosphoric acid on rust and it competes with the iron for the oxygen and you end up with ferric phosphate (which is a lovely mauve colour) and can be left in place (it's relatively inert and protects the surface) or rubbed off to expose bare metal. Paint over with whatever you feel like using

hey, my chemistry analysis was close! Magic majic79' thanks for filling in my missing minor details!

 

[clivehorridge]

Ther is no cure for rust. "Cure" ? what do they mean by that? It does not make sense. I doubt whether any product guarantees rust removal. After having restored cars for 50 years now I can reliably say that if you have rust and don't want it any more it has to be completely removed either by sandblasting or dipping ...

In 1980's I was restoring Aston Martins from the late 50's which were 20 years old. Their chassis were completely free of rust because of the good quality steel used. Then later on I was restoring the same construction of Astons from 1963 which were completely rotted out due to the very poor quality steel from the 60's. On these cars I had to manufacture new lower chassis then weld the two together.

Frank

I 'restored' an MGB GT time ago, what a mess that was, rotten as a proverbial pear! The old boys at Landrover, when I worked there in the early 80's used to be ashamed of the cost cuts compromising on steel quality. Gearboxes were regularly failing on one year old vehicles, when in the 60's the Landrover was one of the toughest vehicles produced. Can't say that these days, sadly. LR chassis steel is dreadful. The rear channel that traps the mud is gone in a few years.

 

[frank rabbets]

My first Land Rover was an abandoned 1949 series 1 which I bought for £10 and pulled out of a rubbish tip in 1965. The chassis had no rust at all. Even the rear cross member was perfect.

Frank

 

[Anwar]

I get the impressions the steel in the 80 is good quality overall, it seems fairly resistant to rust though time and salt are beginning to have effects underneath.

Certainly better than W210 Merc and BMW E39...

Is anything made of good steel like those 50's Astons and Landrovers?

From reading I think Hammerite and other single pack products have long molecules that form a layer over the top rather than getting in amongst the rust, but even the best products are dependent on extensive cleaning.

 

[frank rabbets]

Hi Anwar

I don't know what type of steel was used in the 50's but there was a good documentary in the 90's on the decline of steel quality in the 60's. The problem was that there was a big and sudden increase in demand and the foremen in the steel industries were told when to draw off the steel. Formerly it was there judgement as every steel production batch was different and it took a long time for the steel to get to the right quality. Also correct ingredients were in short supply. I remember going to an Aston Service centre where they had a 3 year old 911 on the ramp. It was completely rotted underneath!!

I had a 1989 Audi Coupe which I sold a few years ago with 240'000 miles on the clock. It had the original "mild" steel exhaust on it. It had a rusty coating on it but otherwise perfect. It wasn't a stainless exhaust.

Frank

 

[Anwar]

Hi Frank

I found your observations v interesting. There was a recent letter to Octane about modern production standards and tolerances giving new cars an almost indefinite mechanical life. I didn't respond, but even discounting the crippling electrical issues, I think this is a very long way from the truth.

I know of an ex-Aston Martin engineer who now specialises in E34 M5's. His own M5 car has done 200,000 (hard) miles on original engine and exhaust, and is now 20 years old. I have another friend with a 6 year old 520d, 75k miles, that needs a new crank... I am well aware of Land Rovers' from 60's and 70's tendency to corrosion, but had no idea things were much better in the 50's.

Incidentally I was struck by your observation that there's no cure for rust. I might draw a parallel and say there's no cure for asthma, heart disease, or diabetes. These are conditions that are "managed" to optimise outcome. Do you think there might be a similarly positive take on rust? E.g. HIV was once a death sentence; it is not yet curable, but it is commonly managed so well that patients are given a near-normal life expectancy. I would hope we can look at rust the same way, not only for the owners of multi-million pound classics, but also for the prospects of my own 19 year old M5.

 

[Anwar]

Hi Anwar,

I use POR15 and it really works but there is a lot of preparation involed which includes using Metal Ready but the process really works well. I've used Hammerite anti-rust products in the past and found them to be useless. POR15 is not cheap but with anti-rust products perhaps you only get what you pay for.

I've tried numerous anti-rust products over the years but the only one worth it's label is POR15.

Regards,

Thank you Roger.

I've asked a restorer of VW camper vans what they use and good ol' waxoyl was the answer. I think I will use combo of POR 15 for painted areas and waxoyl for less visible areas. The 80 is for sale at the moment, but will apply this to my old saloon and whatever truck replaces the 80.

Not sure the newer ones are made from the same quality steel as the old 80, none I've looked at seems as clean as my car was when I bought it nearly 8 years ago.

 

[Rodger]

Hi Anwar,
As well as POR-15, for the inaccessible areas I used Dinitrol as they do a tube with a one-way valve especially for getting into those awkward areas. I found that waxoyl collects dirt whereas the Dinitrol seems to reject it.... but it could be me and wishful thinking!

I don't like Hammerite for exactly the reason that Ben says in this thread, you have to keep repeating the process. Remember that POR-15 will need over-coating if it is used in an area which is subject to sunlight on a regular basis.

Regards,

 

[Gary820]

I've made a start on my 80 using the por-15 products. Gave it a good clean with the marine clean and steam cleaned, it's quite clean underneath now. Going to use the prep and ready stuff where needed after a going over with a wire brush then chassis paint where I can get to. Got some dinitrol for the hard to reach places plus cavity wax. Going to re paint axles, steering etc get it looking nice, got a bit of surface rust and don't want it taking hold!!

 

[Bat21]

The underside of my 80 gets 2 cans of ACF50 sprayed on it each year around Sept/Oct time, 2 cans is plenty. More tech info here.

She is now 21 years old and rust free. I have also sprayed the front ARB winch bumper and if wiped off it still looks like new

 

[Gary820]

I used to just clean up the chassis and underseal/waxoil but every time I did any work I'd get covered in the stuff.
Last truck I had got painted underneath and it was so much nicer looking and cleaner to work on.

 

[frank rabbets]

With regard to the body rust starts from the inside and by the time you are aware of it on the surface paint the metal beneath has gone. For example the rear of the sill where water gets trapped inside even though there are drain holes. I am sure if these had been waxed internaly from new there would not be nearly as much rust. The problem here is that you cannot get to the inside to sand blast the rust off. With my 80 I plugged up the slotted drain holes and filled the whole sill sections with 50/50 waxoil/white spirit mixture. To do this I removed the rear door light switches on the rear door pillars and poured it in with a funnel. Then I took the plastic drain plugs out and let it pour out into a long tray. Prior to this I removed the rear/bottom plastic plug out and drilled an 8mm hole upwards through the double skin. Again that is a problem in this area as it traps water. You can check an 80 sills by removing the inner side plastic plugs and inspect with a small torch and mirror. The steel in the 80 is much better than that used in the 60's and 70's in UK.

Accessible rust can be treated by removing as much as possible first. I think managing rust is practical and a better and more realistic attitude than to "curing" it. The problem with filling with waxoil is that the steel is not then weldable due to it catching fire when you try.

I made new inner box section sills for a AM DB6 (steel) and outer ones (aluminium welded into the surrounding bodywork and pop rivetted underneath as standard). I filled the whole up with dilute waxoil and then removed the plugs from large drain holes I had made. It was a 1967 car and in 1980 the sills were rotten. When I removed the bubbled outer aluminium there was just a solid rust box section 2 inches wide and 5 inches high and 4 feet long. The original steel was about the thickness of a beer mat but the solid rust it turned into was about 1/2 inch thick. Surrounding areas such as the floor and bottoms of the door pillars were also rotting. I wondered why the carpet felt a bit crunchy! My friend bought the car in 1982 and kept it for 11 years and there was no rust recurrence. In fact even after all that time waxoil dribled out on a hot day. So the original car rotted out in about 13 years but after another similar period there was no rust. It was MAJOR surgery though. And now my 80 is about 18 years old with very little rust, certainly no perforations!

I restored 2 similar DB5's with terrible rust. Then I bought a 1959 DB4GT in about 1986. There was no rust at all. Also in 1986 another friend restored a DB4 with no rust. Then my last car was another 1959 DB4GT again with no rust.

In those days these cars were not expensive and my last DB4GT Anthony Bamford bought in 1986 for his collection at JCB. The last DB4GT for restoration sold at the Newport Pagnel auction about 5 years ago for about £900,000 + 15% buyers premium. They are investments now whereas when I used to buy them they were just old worn out cars. The DB5's and DB6's were MOT failures that the owners just wanted rid of. I bought them because I liked restoring cars!

Frank

 

[Dave_S]

I'd like to get the underside of my 80 treated but to be completely honest I don't have the time or inclination to spend the best part of a weekend grubbing about under the truck on the drive. So, as an alternative, I was looking for someone else to do it. I found these guys:
http://www.rust.co.uk/products/category/32734/we-can-rust-proof-your-car-from-250/

Seems cheap enough for the work involved - anyone used them or comment on the approach suggested?

 

[Ben]

The steel/paint definitely seems better on the 80's than the UK 60's and 70's.

I've seen a lot of 70's with rusted out rear arches, below the rear lights and the sill at the bottom of the B pillars.

Has/does anyone use any of the electrical rust prevention systems?

I'm thinking of fitting one to my brand new 70 if/when I get it.

http://www.couplertec.com/?gclid=CPzAvdis_bYCFUxfpQod0kQA7Q

 

[Roger Fairclough]

From my own experiences, Hammerite is to hard and inflexible. On a metal fence post it may work but on a chassis, subject to vibration and general movement, it breaks up.

Does anyone know what they are using to paint the Forth Bridge? I seem to remember it has a life of 40 odd years.

Roger

 

[clivehorridge]

Most structural steelwork is painted with a zinc rich two part epoxy paint. The problem here is that suppliers talk in quantities of tonnes, where the minimum order may be 1 tonne at something like £3,000/tonne!

Even a bulk buy wouldn't close a deal on that one!

I've tried to get some in the past without success, but someone here may have found a small order source.

 

[uHu]

This is a bridge 40 years after painting:

Treatment, in 1970:

• Sandblasting to Sa 3
• 100 μm TSZ,
• max. 10 μm wash primer
• 80-100 μm primer, alkyd/zinc cromate
• 80-100 μm topcoat, alkyd, with flakes of aluminium and iron

The current standard:
0. Sandblasting
1. Thermally sprayed zinc or alloys of zinc (TSZ).
MDFT: 100 μm.
2. Sealer/Tiecoat (eg. 25-30 μm epoxy polyamid)
3. Intermediate coat, Epoxy Mastic: 125 μm.
4. Topcoat, Polyurethane or PU-Acrylic: 75 μm.


On vehicles, I use Rust Bullet. Seems to hold up after three years.