Dreaded click click click

[steverjuk]

Just wondering why they ever did the 24v starter, I agree it's not needed but wondering why Toyota thought it was even a good idea.

 

[AndycruiserguyLomas]

I think there’s a lot of luck involved in the quality of the batteries you get when you buy new irrespective of the brand. The two Vartas on the 80 when I bought it were not new but still lasted me 9 years despite being flattened to within an inch of their lives twice due to a parasitic drain fault. The current replacement Vartas are almost 5 years old now and still going strong.
I put a new Varta on the dirt bike last year but left the heated grips on which flattened it to less than 6 volts which effectively killed as it wouldn’t hold charge despite being ‘recovered’ by a fancy charger. Only takes one weak or bad plate and the whole thing is scrap.

I agree with the "Luck" side of it. The ones on my 1st 80 lasted till they were about 10 years old and without warning failed overnight. We've just had a pair of Varta's fail on one of the trucks without warning 2 years and 1 month after purchasing so not very impressed. That said there are other sets far older on other trucks which are still strong.

 

[AndycruiserguyLomas]

Steve ask your self how many vehicles, in freezing climates, are 24v? Ask yourself why the 100 series is 12v. Ask yourself why the Colorado only came with the 2 battery Winter pack - in the UK. ask yourself why only the LWB Colorado got the Winter pack. Ask yourself why the 4.5 petrol 80 only came in 12v. Why is the 70 series 12v?

If an 80 doesn't start in 1/4 second, then it's not going to start. Any 12v Landrover, Rangerover, Patrol etc will use more cranking in hot weather than a sub zero 80 would in the Arctic. It's completely unnecessary.They fire up like a light bulb every single time

You see the case for 12v start has been made. It works. it's the same as a billion other cars in the world. So far (and having owned 5 80s) no one has ever said, crikey, it's a good job the 80 was 24v or it would never have started.

You can always tell a new 80 owner. How, becaue they don't let go of the key fast enough.

Fight fight fight ....

The usually do start in an instant, the GS was stood for 10 years outside and with 2 truck batteries and good jump leads it started like it was last run the day before, click,brum,tickover.

Mind the green one is taking some churning to start it these days !! ( runs and hides).

 

[Towpack]

Just wondering why they ever did the 24v starter, I agree it's not needed but wondering why Toyota thought it was even a good idea.

The use of 24v instead of 12 is down to reliability. With 24v the current draw of an electrical system will be less compared to a similar rated one that is 12v, so wiring can be thinner/lighter and voltage drop issues will be fewer, in the same way that 12v electrics are better than 6v. A 24v starter will deliver far more power/ torque for a given size compared to a 12v version so starting will (should) be easier, important in large Diesel engines. This accounts for its almost universal use in large commercial and military vehicles.
I think Toyota we’re trying to kill 2 birds with one stone with the dual 12/24 system of the 80 series. The above benefits of 24v plus the 12v advantages of much wider availability of 12v spares and accessories. I suppose it’s easy to condemn the dual system starting in the 80 when it’s failed you and a 12v conversion was the cheapest/easiest/simplest fix but I think the the OEM 24v system is generally pretty reliable given the numbers still out there. JMO

 

[chapel gate]

Toyota wanted to conquer the planet with the 80 series.
we and other cooler climate countrys got the cold weather package;
24 volt starting.
pull down rad blind.
hand throttle cable.
fuel filter heater.
heated seats.
bollock warmer..

warmer climes;
12 volt starting.
rear aircon.
centre console fridge.
air filter clogged warning light.
optional snorkel.
bollock cooler..

 

[chapel gate]

See what the voltage of each battery is on cranking in the the morning?

Sick to death of batteries. Had the 80 20 years now and never had a pair last more than 3 years. Even the originals failed dead on 3 years 1 week after I bought it. Never a slow crank warning but just a click. Better than a big end click though.

im doing well if I get five years out of a set of varta's

 

[Chris]

Just to be clear, my 24v start didn't fail leading to me fitting a 12v system. It certainly wasn't easier and cheaper.

My thoughts are that the 24v system is unnecessarily complex. Not that it's unreliable. So, IF if goes down then it causes difficulties that cannot be easily remedied. We have seen instances where even jump starting an 80 with a failed battery haven't been possible. Just ask Byron!

Even the newest 80 out there is now over 21 years old and we don't yet know all of the failures that we're going to have because they're so well built. The first ones are nearing 30 years old and still going strong. But we do know that the dreaded click click is not exactly rare. I converted mine to remove things that MIGHT fail and also to make it easier to fix in the field if it did.

 

[frank rabbets]

The 24 volt system doubles the chance of battery failure c/w 12 volt system. Also in the event of failure you have to buy 2 batteries rather than one. My conversion allows me to still have 2 batteries but I only have one connected at a time. I just undo the coupling on the battery in use and connect up the other one every few weeks or so to rotate them. This means I have a more reliable system than 24 volt and in the event of failure have a spare fully charged one already fitted.

Just had battery failure on my 5 year old Golf. Halfords offered a 4 year warranty with their battery but main dealer only 2 years. Mystifying and very expensive with a bill for £220.

 

[steverjuk]

The 24 volt system doubles the chance of battery failure c/w 12 volt system. Also in the event of failure you have to buy 2 batteries rather than one. My conversion allows me to still have 2 batteries but I only have one connected at a time. I just undo the coupling on the battery in use and connect up the other one every few weeks or so to rotate them. This means I have a more reliable system than 24 volt and in the event of failure have a spare fully charged one already fitted.

Just had battery failure on my 5 year old Golf. Halfords offered a 4 year warranty with their battery but main dealer only 2 years. Mystifying and very expensive with a bill for £220.

Why not just fix a split charge system, with a 200amp relay and a switch? That way you don't have to manually change anything.

 

[Chris]

That's exactly what I have on mine. VSR and a big relay.

 

[steverjuk]

Once I get my 80 thing, I'm going two optima red tops and a VSR.

 

[frank rabbets]

That's the easiest question ever Steve. I would not know where to begin . But you are adding more stuff aren't you ?

P.S. Just checked Halfords 'site they show an 80 battery with five year warranty. I assume they can get the handed one. Not cheap at £124.

 

[steverjuk]

That's the easiest question ever Steve. I would not know where to begin . But you are adding more stuff aren't you ?

P.S. Just checked Halfords 'site they show an 80 battery with five year warranty. I assume they can get the handed one. Not cheap at £124.

Yea but you're adding something that can be removed if it malfunctions and still works. How it works is you have a relay (automated switch), when the alternator kick on and starts charging the batteries the relay closes and starts charging both batteries. Once you turn the car off the VSR (voltage sensing relay) detects that the car is no longer charging and disconnects the batteries.
You can then add a switch that manually joins both batteries in the case that your starter battery is caput. I'm going for AGM batteries as they perform better in colder climates.
The wiring for all this is super simple and if you removed the 24v system then you should be able to wire it all in.

Example of a relay you could use is https://www.12voltplanet.co.uk/voltage-sensitive-relay-12v-140a.html

or if you want a fancy kit

https://www.paddockspares.com/ba2685-t-max-split-charge-system.html

 

[Chris]

I just bought a branded battery for the PS Frank. £84 delivered. Yuasa IIRC. Came next day.

Steve, I'd seriously re consider putting in red tops. it's completely unnecessary and they will suffer if charged at regular alternator voltage. It's been discussed at length before here but safe to say that Optima AGM batteries at lease require a harder charging regime. I put one in my set up (12v start with DS battery as a kinda leisure battery) and it did 6 months before it started to deteriorate. Ordinary wet batteries are perfectly fine for starting and vehicle systems. If you want an AGM leisure battery then do so, but put in a DC to DC charger for it.

I really hate to use the word 'obsessed' but unless you are joining the Arctic Survey Mission and spending time at the Polar ice caps, I think you are over prepping for the cold.

As I have said, pop over and see me. It's a genuine offer. My overlander has been sitting for weeks. We can go and turn the key together.

 

[steverjuk]

I've got a yellow top and red top in my Defender for years and they are by far the best batteries I've had. Per the charging issues, I contact the manufacturer and they said alternator charging is fine per https://www.optimabatteries.com/en-us/support/charging/charging-tips.
I always fit red tops for starter batteries as I've never had any problems with them and another secondary plus is their cold weather performance. I'd love to pop over and pick your brain, although I know when I do I'll have another shopping list of parts I want. Once I get my 80 I'll be arranging a trip.

 

[Chris]

Yes there's always a never ending list.

Odd though as I contacted Optima too and they told me the exact opposite. Moreover they said that they had a constant return of batteries that had failed and associated bad press when the failing was in the charging regime. My local supplier had a crate of Optimas outside. I said, that's not a very good advert is it? Their reply was again that people used them in the wrong application and they failed due to poor charging.

I took my failing yellow top and put it on a CTEK. Where it's been ever since giving great performance.

I'm glad to hear that yours has been a different experience. Id' certainly do some more reading before putting them into an 80, especially with the 24v start. I'd personally put in a standard cranker then a dc to dc over to a yellow on the DS location.

 

[frank rabbets]

Yuasa make the Halfords branded batteries for them.

I guess Yuasa make batteries according to a spec so just having "Yuasa" on the battery does not mean it's out of their top drawer.

I know nothing very deep about charging but the AGM fitted to the golf will not take a traditional charger. The owners manual warns you to take the battery to VW or a qualified shop for charging.

 

[steverjuk]

I suppose it has to do with how lucky you are with the batteries you get, who put them together, how old they are etc. I've been more than happy with my AGM batteries just running on alternator / solar panels.
I'm also thinking at using lithium-ion batteries for my next build as the weight saving/increase in storage capacity could be worth it. Well, that's if I can bring myself to spend that much on some batteries.

 

[StarCruiser]

To add to what Chris is saying, AGM batteries require 14.7v to charge correctly where standard wet lead acid batteries take 14.4v if your alternator is delivering 14.7v then your AGM battery should be fine. A standard alternator on an 80 will be delivering 14.4v.

Aside from batteries in parallel not being ideal, the 24v start/ 12v charge system gives very little trouble, but as Chris says, adds complexity. His system both simplifies and adds a fall back position and a spare (leisure battery) on top of that (unless I’m mistaken) so pretty much any scenario away from civilisation is catered for.

 

[Dave2000]

Strange that Optima used the charging voltage BS a couple of years after Johnson Controls moved Optima manufacturing from USA to Mexico.

They WERE good batteries however, until quality control gets kicked into touch I would not buy another Optima.

I fit dual terminal marine spec wet cell batteries, I expect around 4...ish years from each pair, so far that had worked out about right, at around £200.00 a pair thats fine by me.

Regards

Dave