eu in or out poll

[Shayne]

Is it me or has the Brexit campaign all but died? The remain campaign is throwing report after report - valid or not - and the Brexit campaign have a response which looks like someone looking up from their paper with boredom and saying "It's rubbish" and going back to their paper. Pretty poor fight they are putting on. .

When your opponent starts blabbering fantastical gibberish a wise man will shut up and let him defeat his own argument . Wonder what CaMoron will come out with next , something along the lines of we will all die of starvation because we won't be able to import enough food if we leave the EU wouldn't surprise me at all .

So are you going to side with someone you absolutely do not trust , or the other fella who is untested but seems to want what you want ?

 

[chadr]

So are you going to side with someone you absolutely do not trust , or the other fella who is untested but seems to want what you want ?

This is the thing though isn't it - should it be a matter of who I "trust"?

I think of myself as being rational enough to make my own mind up, assuming I'm given the facts to base that decision upon - I don't feel the need to be led by someone I "trust" to make my decision.

Now you may look upon those same facts and make a different decision to me - that is entirely your prerogative and entirely valid.

The main issue for me, is that those facts have simply not been put forward by either party IMHO - I'm sure I said similar at the start of this thread and nothing much has changed!

 

[MarkW]

Well said Chadr.

The In/Out campaigners and their supporters long ago lowered their positions to who can shout the loudest or dream up the wildest conspiracy theory.

 

[Rob Cowell]

When your opponent starts blabbering fantastical gibberish a wise man will shut up and let him defeat his own argument . Wonder what CaMoron will come out with next , something along the lines of we will all die of starvation because we won't be able to import enough food if we leave the EU wouldn't surprise me at all .

So are you going to side with someone you absolutely do not trust , or the other fella who is untested but seems to want what you want ?

Who is the untested other fella?

 

[MarkW]

One can only assume it's Corboyle the Tramp?

 

[Rob Cowell]

One can only assume it's Corboyle the Tramp?

But he's Bremain too isn't he? Although he does seem to be keeping pretty quiet and letting all the others look daft.

 

[MarkW]

Don't know what his thoughts are. TBH he looks daft most of the time anyway without even speaking

 

[Rob Cowell]

This is the thing though isn't it - should it be a matter of who I "trust"?

I think of myself as being rational enough to make my own mind up, assuming I'm given the facts to base that decision upon - I don't feel the need to be led by someone I "trust" to make my decision.

Now you may look upon those same facts and make a different decision to me - that is entirely your prerogative and entirely valid.

The main issue for me, is that those facts have simply not been put forward by either party IMHO - I'm sure I said similar at the start of this thread and nothing much has changed!

I don't think the facts are hidden. Go and have a look at the excellent ONS national archives. All the population, houseprice, immigration, economic growth figures and trends are there. You can listen to forecasts based on figures from anyone you want but none of those will be facts, even if the source is truely neutral.

 

[Rob Cowell]

But he's Bremain too isn't he? Although he does seem to be keeping pretty quiet and letting all the others look daft.

Although if we are basing leadership qualities on aesthetics we really are in trouble

 

[Shayne]

Who is the untested other fella?

A lazy figure of speech if you will , what i mean is nobody trusts apocalyptic propaganda and it seems to me that's all coming from one side .

The other side has made promises of popular changes without offering any explanation of how these changes will be implemented .

Its a farce .

Seems to me that the one thing that all parties agree upon 100% is that our relationship with/within the EU must change , and my view is to keep the status quo is to ensure it won't happen .

 

[chadr]

Relevant today as it was over 40 years ago...........

This letter from Tony Benn to his constituents was written in 1975 and published in The Spectator.

In 1975 you will each have the responsibility of deciding by vote whether the United Kingdom should remain a member of the European Common Market: or whether we should withdraw completely, and remain an independent self-governing nation. That decision, once taken will almost certainly be irreversible.

In both the 1974 general elections I fully supported our manifesto commitment on the handling of the Common Market question. The present Government is now engaged in renegotiating the terms of entry along the lines set out in those Manifestos and is solemnly pledged, whatever the Outcome of those negotiations, to see to it that the final decision will be taken by the British people.

But we must recognise that the European Community has now set itself the objectives of developing a common foreign policy, a form of common nationality expressed through a common passport, a directly elected assembly and an economic and monetary union which, taken together, would in effect make the United Kingdom into one province of a Western European state.

Britain’s continuing membership of the Community would mean the end of Britain as a completely self-governing nation and the end of our democratically elected parliament as the supreme law-making body in the United Kingdom.

I am writing, not to argue a case, but to explain — as best I can — what effect British membership of the Common Market has had upon the constitutional relationship between a member of Parliament and his constituents. The Parliamentary democracy we have developed and established in Britain is based, not upon the sovereignty of Parliament, but upon the sovereignty of the People, who, by exercising their vote lend their sovereign powers to Members of Parliament, to use on their behalf, for the duration of a single Parliament only — Powers that must be returned intact to the electorate to whom they belong, to lend again to the Members of Parliament they elect in each subsequent general election. Five basic democratic rights derive from this relationship, and each of them is fundamentally altered by Britain’s membership of the European Community,

First: Parliamentary Democracy means that every man and woman over eighteen is entitled to vote to elect his or her Member of Parliament to serve in the House of Commons; and the consent of the House of Commons is necessary fore Parliament can pass any act laying down new laws or imposing new taxation on the people. British Membership of the Community subjects us all to laws and taxes which your Members of Parliament do not enact, such laws and taxes being enacted by Authorities you do not directly elect, and cannot dismiss through the ballot box.

Second: Parliamentary Democracy means that Members of Parliament who derive their power directly from the British people, can change any law and any tax by majority vote, British Membership of the Community means that community laws and taxes cannot be changed or repealed by the British Parliament, but only by Community authorities not directly elected by the British People.

Third: Parliamentary Democracy means that British Courts and Judges must Uphold all laws passed by Parliament; and if Parliament changes any law the courts must enforce the new law because it has been passed by Parliament Which has been directly elected by the people. British Membership of the Community requires the British Courts to uphold and enforce community laws that have not been passed by Parliament, and that Parliament cannot change or amend, even when such laws conflict with laws passed by Parliament, since Community law over-rides British Law.

Fourth: Parliamentary Democracy means that all British governments, ministers and the civil servants under their control can only act within the laws of Britain and are accountable to Parliament for everything they do, and hence, through Parliament to the electors as a whole. British Membership of the Community imposes duties and constraints upon British governments not deriving from the British Parliament; and thus, in discharging those duties Ministers are not accountable to Parliament or to the British people who elect them.

Fifth: Parliamentary Democracy because it entrenches the rights of the people to elect and dismiss Members of Parliament, also secures the continuing accountability of Members of Parliament to the electorate, obliging Members of .Parliament to listen to the expression of the British people’s views at all times, between, as well as during, general elections, and thus offers a continuing possibility of peaceful change through Parliament to meet the people’s needs. British Membership of the Community by permanently transferring sovereign legislative and financial powers to Community authorities, who are not directly elected by the British people, also permanently insulates those authorities from direct control by the British electors who cannot dismiss them and whose views, therefore, need carry no weight with them and whose grievances they cannot be compelled to remedy.

In short, the power of the electors of Britain, through their direct representatives in Parliament to make laws, levy taxes, change laws which the courts must uphold, and control the conduct of public affairs has• been substantially ceded to the European Community whose Council of Ministers and Commission are neither collectively elected, nor collectively dismissed by the British people nor even by the peoples a all the Community countries put together.

These five rights have protected us in Britain from the worst abuse of power by government; safeguarded us against the excesses of bureaucracy; defended our . basic liberties; offered us the prospect of peaceful change; reduced the risk of civil strife; and bound us together by creating a national framework of consent for all the laws under which we were governed. We have promised a ballot box decision because all these rights are important, and none should be abandoned without the explicit consent of the people.

I am, of course, not here addressing myself to the general political or economic arguments for or against entry, nor commenting on the view that the advantages of membership might outweigh the loss of democratic rights that I have described. But no one who votes in the ballot box should be in any doubt as to the effect British membership has had, and will increasingly continue to have, in removing the power the British people once enjoyed to govern themselves.

Having campaigned so long to win for you the right to have a referendum I am proud to serve in a government that has promised that the final decision will be made by all the electors through the ballot box. The whole nation, and all political parties, are divided on the Common Market question. We must respect the sincerity of those who take a different view from our own. We should all accept the verdict of the British people whatever it is, and I shall certainly do so.

But from now, until that decision is taken, we all have a responsibility to discuss the issues openly, calmly and seriously, and it is in this spirit that I am writing to you as your Member of Parliament over the last twenty-four years.

This article first appeared in The Spectator on 18 January 1975

Reproduced from Spectator

 

[Shayne]

Take a bow for finding that Chadr

 

[Werneroeder]

In.

 

[Chas]

Without taking any side this picture made me laugh. I think it was the expressions on their faces.
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[Dave2000]

Possibly relevant?

I just got my new E111 or EHIC card. Reading through the Spanish letter accompanying it, it seems that I do not have the same rights being English as opposed to a Spaniard? I pay the same taxes, social security, rates and everything else that a Spaniard does....and yet I cannot use my EHIC in certain countries, so Iceland, Norway, Sweden Denmark and somewhere else I cannot recall. So, if a Spaniard is living and working in the UK, does their UK issued EHIC allow them access to the above countries. If I was Spanish I would be covered by the EU card. I am not so?

Somewhere along the line, living and working in another EU country I have lost medical rights? Or do I turn up sick and tell them I used to live in the UK and want free treatment, are UK residents allowed free (or reciprocal) medical treatment? Or is this some other 'out of the EU' agreement that Spain has with these other countries?

regards

Dave

 

[Shayne]

Do the countries you mention not enjoy a "special relationship" within the EU ?

I would imagine the medical side of things relate to America's set up where it is illegal to refuse treatment but somebody must pay for it later .

In the non EU Isle of Man the A&E has a counter for non qualifying patients to submit their details , I can only assume the treatment bill is sent to whatever nation the patient relates as i have never heard a whisper of anyone being charged a fee ?

 

[Dave2000]

I was unsure Shayne if this is normal for any country to have an agreement outside of the EU or it is a 'Spanish' thing.

It definitely excludes me from getting treatment in those countries, a complete paragraph states:

"If you are not a Spanish national from this (Spain) country, then you have no rights to get treatment from these countries."

When I first came to Spain and needed some medical assistance, I was sent to an area in the clinic called 'Desplazdos' or displaced person.

You get the minimum of treatment needed to get you back to your county of residence, and from what I have experienced the E111 or EHIC does this fine however, I am definitely excluded from treatment in these other countries I mentioned above. So, is this an area where countries not directly in the EU but shall we say 'associated' with it are being selective about who they treat? This allows them to control access to their health services, something the UK appears to have lost?

Unsure if a UK resident gets treatment in these countries, worth checking?

regards

Dave

 

[Rob Cowell]

I applied for a new EHIC last week after it was talked about here, and I couldn't find mine. In the UK if you are classed as a resident, you are covered for all EU, EEA and Switzerland. Iceland and Norway are in the EEA, and Denmark is in the EU.

On the UK form it says that the UK level of insurance is covered by all countries on the EHIC, and the UK level is that all residents are covered for healthcare. Maybe non-Spanish nationals are not entitled to quite the same level of cover as Spansih nationals, and that is what cascades through the agreements Spain has? Seems a bit off that different countries in the agreement treat it differently though.

 

[Dave2000]

Seems a bit off that different countries in the agreement treat it differently though.

I did make this point way back earlier, countries do as they see fit unless they can see benefits of following the rules. This also adds credence to my opinion that the EU membership is not a level playing field. I move to another EU country and actually lose rights, how can that be?

This one may well have slipped under the radar had my EHIC not arrived?

BTW, I have completed all documents/download/photographs/uploads to collect a parcel from outside the EU, and they are still calculating the duty................since last Thursday!!

regards

Dave

 

[Rob Cowell]

I did make this point way back earlier, countries do as they see fit unless they can see benefits of following the rules. This also adds credence to my opinion that the EU membership is not a level playing field. I move to another EU country and actually lose rights, how can that be?

This one may well have slipped under the radar had my EHIC not arrived?

BTW, I have completed all documents/download/photographs/uploads to collect a parcel from outside the EU, and they are still calculating the duty................since last Thursday!!

regards

Dave

But remember, EHIC is not an EU initiative. Any inadequacies or inconsistencies are not down to the EU.