Injector leaking

[Matthew1955]

Hi All,
Sorry,been here for some time.
Having just had my 2005 LC serviced and Timing belt change the garage ( Toyota main dealer) has informed me one of the Injector seals is leaking and have supplied me with a quote to do the work which seems horrendous to me so what are members thoughts please,the quote is listed below

The quote is to to replace injector seats,rings and nozzles

Labour 6 hours at £89.95 per hour 539.70
Parts 78.44

Plus VAT so total of £741.77

Thanks all

Matthew

 

[MetalDonkey]

Yep it seems about right for a Main Dealer
One quick question though is it Cylinder no2 that requires the seat changing ? Some advice If you decide to get the work done , get the garage to remove the engine sump and clean the oil strainer as you will find it 'caked' in burnt oil residue.
Had the same work done by an non specialist , Independent . He fleeced me about £500 more than your quote for the same work. I guess i paid some sort of wealth tax as I live in London and drive a 4x4

 

[Rob Cowell]

Hi All,
Sorry,been here for some time.
Having just had my 2005 LC serviced and Timing belt change the garage ( Toyota main dealer) has informed me one of the Injector seals is leaking and have supplied me with a quote to do the work which seems horrendous to me so what are members thoughts please,the quote is listed below

The quote is to to replace injector seats,rings and nozzles

Labour 6 hours at £89.95 per hour 539.70
Parts 78.44

Plus VAT so total of £741.77

Thanks all

Matthew

Looks about right. Took me about 8 hours working slowly and checking the manual a lot. And having lots of coffee breaks. It’s not particularly difficult to do but if an injector has been leaking it can be a bit sticky to pull out which would be my worry.

 

[Matthew1955]

Thanks both,it seems like I am a bit behind the times when it comes to labour costs these days and I will take your advice MD about getting the oil strainer cleaned while they are working on the car.
I did get the garage I bought the car from to replace the seals before I took ownership as I was aware of the copper seal problem on the car so I guess the injector may have been leaking since then,about 9 months ago.
What are the potential problems of a leaking injector if I leave having the work done for a couple of months,so it may well be leaking for about a year ?
Thanks
Matthew

 

[Michael Montgomery]

I’m no exprert to UK prices anymore but that’s kinda high (main dealer normal) getting an independent specialist would propably be the cheapest and save you half that.

 

[MetalDonkey]

Hi There,
As far as I am aware, a leaking injector could potentially cause more fuel to be injected into the cylinder. this in turn could cause the cylinder to run hotter and could possibly damage the piston in the future . So I have been told , afraid I am no expert in diesel combustion. In my case it was cylinder No2 that was allowing oil in to be burnt. A set of reconditioned injectors is expensive, but this might be the best option.
I noticed in your post you said 'nozzles' Is that the for the repair of the leaking injector or for all the injectors.

 

[Rob Cowell]

You’ve said both your injector and injector seal is leaking. Which is it? If you had the seals done when you bought it I’d expect the injectors to go before the seals.

How have the garage diagnosed the problem? Are they reading the injector compensation figures on Techstream? If so, what are the figures, will they tell you? I would have thought you’d need to take the injector out to show it’s leaking rather than just worn.

As has been said an injector pushing too much fuel into the cylinder will raise the combustion temperature and there is a danger you crack a piston which really will be expensive.

How many miles has your engine done?

If they are fitting new nozzles to your injectors the labour price sounds better but good to be clear what it is they’re doing.

But let’s start with understanding exactly what the problem is.

 

[Matthew1955]

Thanks for the input both.The garage cannot or will not tell me how they have found the leak they just say it became apparent during the service so not to helpful.The engine has done 93K miles so not many for a D4D engine really.Looks like they have me over a bit of a barrel.

 

[BriComp]

Thanks for the input both.The garage cannot or will not tell me how they have found the leak they just say it became apparent during the service so not to helpful.The engine has done 93K miles so not many for a D4D engine really.Looks like they have me over a bit of a barrel.

Call Toyota and complain about the dealer and lack of info from them. I have done similar in the past with good results. You can get a number from their web site.

 

[Deleted member 13129]

Thanks for the input both.The garage cannot or will not tell me how they have found the leak they just say it became apparent during the service so not to helpful.The engine has done 93K miles so not many for a D4D engine really.Looks like they have me over a bit of a barrel.

Hi
The Toyota dealer informed you one of injectors seal is leaking , the seal is the washer which the dealer you got the car from supposedly changed from copper to ali , and not the injector itself leaking or the parts bill would be much higher, have the present dealer noticed the sump strainer looking very dirty by looking up from the sump drain hole I can't imagine they could tell any other way without a compression test (which on a diesel needs more complex test work than on a petrol ) , the sump strainer condition could have happened before the selling dealer changed the seals OR the dealer did not bother to change them , one way to check is with Toyota data base to see if the work was recorded . A sump strainer clean can be done by you or any garage for peanuts compared to £741.77 which does not probably include a strainer clean when the best policy after a leaking seal is to clean the strainer .
Good luck with finding out which way to go with this .
regards Tony

 

[Rob Cowell]

As Tony says if the seal is leaking and you had the seals done the only reason they now leak is either they used the wrong (copper) seals, or they didn't clean the facing in the cylinder head properly when they changed it. But without taking the rocker cover off I don't know how they can tell, and you wouldn't take that off during a service unless you were doing the rocker shims and that's not a normal service.

But from what you've said I'm still not clear what the garage are telling you. Is it the injector, or the injector seat / seal that is leaking?

 

[Deleted member 13129]

As Tony says if the seal is leaking and you had the seals done the only reason they now leak is either they used the wrong (copper) seals, or they didn't clean the facing in the cylinder head properly when they changed it. But without taking the rocker cover off I don't know how they can tell, and you wouldn't take that off during a service unless you were doing the rocker shims and that's not a normal service.

But from what you've said I'm still not clear what the garage are telling you. Is it the injector, or the injector seat / seal that is leaking?

I totally agree with you Rob about making sure the cylinder head for the seals are totally clean and void of any contamination especially if any thing is left baked on from a leaking seal and not fully cleaned up for the new seat .
regards Tony

 

[Matthew1955]

Thanks again guys.I clearly need to investing this further with the dealer.The chap at the main dealer just said "the mechanic found a leak while doing the service" I am going to take it up with him face to face tomorrow and see what I can find out.I have also found there is an Injector specialists not 5mins from the dealer so will call in and see what they have to say.Will report back,thanks again

 

[Matthew1955]

This morning I went to the dealership and after some initial objections by the front office staff I got speak with the mechanic who worked on my car and said there was a leak.He explained and showed me he could hear a leak from an injector seal which I had to agree could be heard.After quite a discussion with him it has been agreed the work will be done to the one (he believes) leaking injector seal,if it is found during the work that the problem extends to further seal then they will be dealt with at the same time.If it is only the one the quote is over £500 less than the original quote.Hopefully this will turn out to be the situation.

 

[Rob Cowell]

Im intrigued having never heard you can hear a leaking seal. How could you tell which seal it was, given the seal is under the injector, and the injector is under the rocker cover?

Did you say this same dealer already changed your seals? How many miles / years ago was that? What are they doing differently this time to make sure it doesn't leak again. Because the aluminium seals shouldn't leak.

So this will now be about £250 rather than £750. That's just very weird. You have to take almost everything off to get one injector out to replace the seal.

And if the seal has been leaking, as already said, make sure they drop the "little" sump and clean the oil pickup otherwise your engine will die an unhappy death sometime soon.

 

[Rob Cowell]

Just so we are definitely talking about the same thing, here is a picture of what is under the rocker cover from when I changed my injectors. The brown caps are the tops of the injectors. To get the injector cover off you have to remove the four pipes you see going in to the cover. You have to remove this at both ends, and they are brittle and must be scrupulously clean inside. Then you remove the cover and some internal pipe work. Only then can you remove the injector, one or four makes almost no difference, although there are one-use crush washers involved but again they are a couple of quid each.

Once you have the injector out, the seal; a copper washer (new ones are alu) is at the bottom of the injector like this one.

When I put mine back together I forgot to put a rubber seal on one of the pipes going into the injector cover and then when I ran the engine it sprayed oil from around the pipe. I wonder if one of these could have degraded. It is "a seal" but it is not what would be called an injector seal.

Better picture here. It would be part#23681A

 

[Deleted member 13129]

Just so we are definitely talking about the same thing, here is a picture of what is under the rocker cover from when I changed my injectors. The brown caps are the tops of the injectors. To get the injector cover off you have to remove the four pipes you see going in to the cover. You have to remove this at both ends, and they are brittle and must be scrupulously clean inside. Then you remove the cover and some internal pipe work. Only then can you remove the injector, one or four makes almost no difference, although there are one-use crush washers involved but again they are a couple of quid each.View attachment 145561

Once you have the injector out, the seal; a copper washer (new ones are alu) is at the bottom of the injector like this one.

View attachment 145562

When I put mine back together I forgot to put a rubber seal on one of the pipes going into the injector cover and then when I ran the engine it sprayed oil from around the pipe. I wonder if one of these could have degraded. It is "a seal" but it is not what would be called an injector seal.

Better picture here. It would be part#23681A

View attachment 145563

I totally agree with you Rob , If the rubber seal is leaking you will be able to hear rockerbox hiss and see a oil leak as it is under pressure , and the same rubber seal is sometimes called by some a rubber nozzle , but the price difference for one against four when its almost the same work time to change 1 or 4 is amazing , I think the dealer should have automatically checked the strainer when the oil drain plug was out . and it is very strange that it took a effort for Matthew to get to be able to speak to the mechanic . It pays to do the work your self not just in money but peace of mind .

 

[Deleted member 13129]

I totally agree with you Rob , If the rubber seal is leaking you will be able to hear rockerbox hiss and see a oil leak as it is under pressure , and the same rubber seal is sometimes called by some a rubber nozzle , but the price difference for one against four when its almost the same work time to change 1 or 4 is amazing , I think the dealer should have automatically checked the strainer when the oil drain plug was out . and it is very strange that it took a effort for Matthew to get to be able to speak to the mechanic . It pays to do the work your self not just in money but peace of mind .

If the seal is not leaking oil I don't think you will be able to hear it either, than it does not need changing , I would leave it alone if no visible signs . I wonder if this dealer is short of work .

 

[Matthew1955]

Now Im really confused.If the mechanic was bullshitting then he was making a pretty good job of it and sounded very convincing.
The garage has quote 1.8 hrs work rather than the 6hrs they quoted before which did seem odd as I imagined, as you guys have said that there is almost as much work getting to the one injector as there is for all four. I have told the garage that I want to see the work being done to satisfy myself that the work is necessary which they reluctantly agreed to.
I have little knowledge when it comes to under bonnet work so it is difficult for me to know if they are just saying work is needed for the sake of it or not but if there is a problem I obviously dont want leave it and cause more damage.

 

[Matthew1955]

Rob,the garage who did the change of seals was a general car repair and sales in Scotland I bought the car from and not the current local Toyota dealership.The seller did supply me with,what he said were the replaced seal which were copper,he did also say that the new ones he fitted were aluminium.