Is this getting a bit silly now? Teenager shot dead after attacking German railway passengers

[Shayne]

To do that Chas would be like putting ourselves in prison to keep us safe from the bad people .

Terrorist's can be anyone , this guy springs to mind https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Winnenden_school_shooting

Mass immigration helps terrorists further their aims but i very much doubt hundreds and thousands trek across countries just to provide cover for those on a terror mission .

The way things are going new born babies will be electronically tagged and tracked through life .

Where do you draw the line between freedom and security ?

The point i was trying to make is if you introduce 1 thief into a village of 1000 trustworthy souls all trust is gone and the sense of community will fall into chronic decline .

Where there's no community there is no social policing , you don't know your neighbors and the suspicious activity going on across the road is non of your business .

If British society was working hundreds of immigrants wouldn't be thrown into council estates to compete with locals who have even less hope than the immigrants of climbing the ladder because they get less help .

 

[Chas]

Of course I don't think every Muslim is a terrorist and that wasn't what I said, but you do agree with me that the more we let in would raise the chance of a terrorist attack.
Yes I do think a total ban would be the best way to reduce an attack and it's not necessarily refugees that are the problem it's the migrants there is a difference you know.
Refugees are more likely to be families whereas the migrants mostly seem to be young men.

 

[Chas]

To do that Chas would be like putting ourselves in prison to keep us safe from the bad people .

Terrorist's can be anyone , this guy springs to mind https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Winnenden_school_shooting

Mass immigration helps terrorists further their aims but i very much doubt hundreds and thousands trek across countries just to provide cover for those on a terror mission .

There will always be individual nutters, there always has been and probably always will. I am more interested in reducing mass killings I don't want to see people being mown down by a lorry driving up some shopping centre in the UK.
I think it is those fleeing a war torn country being used by those on the terror missions as cover not the other way round.

 

[hopeless wanderer]

There will always be individual nutters, there always has been and probably always will. I am more interested in reducing mass killings I don't want to see people being mown down by a lorry driving up some shopping centre in the UK.
I think it is those fleeing a war torn country being used by those on the terror missions as cover not the other way round.

You need a handy card to work out what you're faced with Chas.
This one may be useful ..

 

[clivehorridge]

My view is that the potential jihadist is typically a 2nd or 3rd gen Brit / French / Dutch / German or whatever, and the 'second tier' as it were will be a recent immigrant migrating for the sole purpose of the jihad.

This puts the majority of the recent influx of refugees on the safe list, but there will always be exceptions.

I can't help but separate (in my own mind) immigrants from refugees. To my mind an immigrant is a person whose made a conscious decision to try to better their lot by choosing to move from wherever to wherever, whereas a refugee ends up where they end up, and as long as that's not where they came from, they will be pleased with the result.

There's a lot of publicity on the undesirable refugees/immigrants and much of that is fact and we should apply the law strictly to those individuals. The laws are in place, offences such as assault, disorderly conduct, affray, disturbing the peace et al exist and should be applied by the book.

Sadly, unless a person is on the watched list, events such as the Nice attack cannot be prevented and the jihadist's will score a hit, but I think Europe as a whole (including Britain) should re-think their policing and security policies when it comes to any place where there is a dense gathering of the public, and they should do it with immediate effect, not next week or when they feel like.

That goes for holiday towns, special days on the calendar when celebrations occur, right down to village carnivals and the like.

IMO, we're too relaxed and complacent in these present times, the happy go lucky attitude of the past "oh it will never happen to us in our town" is a thing of the past. Targets will be where the numbers are, not the prominent cities that have traditionally been hit, the capitals London/Paris/Brussels etc.

In Istanbul, they've had some 15+ terrorist attacks this year alone, each one claiming from between 20 to 120 victims. Most of these attacks have been at bus/railway stations, market squares, malls, busy streets, the domestic airport and more recently of course the International Ataturk Airport.

Nowhere where there are crowds will be safe in any 'European' country from now on, and it's time the authorities honoured their duty to adopt more stringent security and policing in these potential targets. It can be done, somebody just has to get off their ass and do it properly.

The Nice attack went ahead with no special security caution whatsoever, it's a disgrace that there was no attempt to place concrete barriers between the roadway and the footways, knowing that there would be thousands of people walking the obvious routes. This should have been done in any event for safety, let alone in these times of terrorist/jihadist attacks.

All the politicians will cry "we don't have the funding for these measures" and the usual crap. When there's an allied war effort they find the money, millions were spent on the Iraq invasion and millions since in trying to deal with the aftermath and the feeble attempts to slow down ISIL.

The money is there, they should spend it properly and bloody quickly.

JMHO of course.

 

[StarCruiser]

My view is that the potential jihadist is typically a 2nd or 3rd gen Brit / French / Dutch / German or whatever, and the 'second tier' as it were will be a recent immigrant migrating for the sole purpose of the jihad.

This puts the majority of the recent influx of refugees on the safe list, but there will always be exceptions.

I can't help but separate (in my own mind) immigrants from refugees. To my mind an immigrant is a person whose made a conscious decision to try to better their lot by choosing to move from wherever to wherever, whereas a refugee ends up where they end up, and as long as that's not where they came from, they will be pleased with the result.

There's a lot of publicity on the undesirable refugees/immigrants and much of that is fact and we should apply the law strictly to those individuals. The laws are in place, offences such as assault, disorderly conduct, affray, disturbing the peace et al exist and should be applied by the book.

Sadly, unless a person is on the watched list, events such as the Nice attack cannot be prevented and the jihadist's will score a hit, but I think Europe as a whole (including Britain) should re-think their policing and security policies when it comes to any place where there is a dense gathering of the public, and they should do it with immediate effect, not next week or when they feel like.

That goes for holiday towns, special days on the calendar when celebrations occur, right down to village carnivals and the like.

IMO, we're too relaxed and complacent in these present times, the happy go lucky attitude of the past "oh it will never happen to us in our town" is a thing of the past. Targets will be where the numbers are, not the prominent cities that have traditionally been hit, the capitals London/Paris/Brussels etc.

In Istanbul, they've had some 15+ terrorist attacks this year alone, each one claiming from between 20 to 120 victims. Most of these attacks have been at bus/railway stations, market squares, malls, busy streets, the domestic airport and more recently of course the International Ataturk Airport.

Nowhere where there are crowds will be safe in any 'European' country from now on, and it's time the authorities honoured their duty to adopt more stringent security and policing in these potential targets. It can be done, somebody just has to get off their ass and do it properly.

The Nice attack went ahead with no special security caution whatsoever, it's a disgrace that there was no attempt to place concrete barriers between the roadway and the footways, knowing that there would be thousands of people walking the obvious routes. This should have been done in any event for safety, let alone in these times of terrorist/jihadist attacks.

All the politicians will cry "we don't have the funding for these measures" and the usual crap. When there's an allied war effort they find the money, millions were spent on the Iraq invasion and millions since in trying to deal with the aftermath and the feeble attempts to slow down ISIL.

The money is there, they should spend it properly and bloody quickly.

JMHO of course.

I agree Clive.

The way I see it, in the UK in WW2 anyone of German origin arriving on our shores would immediately have been at least viewed with suspicion or more likely arrested or otherwise stopped and imprisoned. Whether or not they wore a German uniform. Is this right? I say yes, it's a precaution in a war.

Many years ago I remember that a Muslim (I don't remember who) declared 'Jihad' on the west. The west has not taken this seriously as far as I can tell but it should, with immediate effect. The same detention or expulsion of Muslim people, because Muslims have declared war, would no doubt be viewed with outrage. But would it be any less right than in WW2 time?

Not every German supported WW2, nor did many know what was actually going on in their country. Doubtless not every Muslim supports Jihad. There were many good Germans in WW2. There are many good Muslims in this time of Jihad. I believe the difference now is that the Jihadis are far outnumbered by the Muslim community yet I see nothing (maybe I'm not in the right position to see) of the Muslim community making the gargantuan effort needed to stop this Jihad. For me, it's the Muslim community that needs to stop this, they have the key if there is one. If they don't, or if they are unable, then what else is there but to go back to what worked in WW2?
JMHO of course.

 

[goodoldboy]

There is no way to stop a determined attacker.So we need to look at stopping the creation of more jihadist.A close look at European/US policy on the middle east in the last 100 Years should give us a clue about what not to dur cynicism & self interest needs to be replaced by respect & cooperation.

 

[Chas]

JMHO of course.

And a bloody good opinion Clive, just wish I had said it.

 

[goodoldboy]

I agree Clive.

The way I see it, in the UK in WW2 anyone of German origin arriving on our shores would immediately have been at least viewed with suspicion or more likely arrested or otherwise stopped and imprisoned. Whether or not they wore a German uniform. Is this right? I say yes, it's a precaution in a war.

Many years ago I remember that a Muslim (I don't remember who) declared 'Jihad' on the west. The west has not taken this seriously as far as I can tell but it should, with immediate effect. The same detention or expulsion of Muslim people, because Muslims have declared war, would no doubt be viewed with outrage. But would it be any less right than in WW2 time?

Not every German supported WW2, nor did many know what was actually going on in their country. Doubtless not every Muslim supports Jihad. There were many good Germans in WW2. There are many good Muslims in this time of Jihad. I believe the difference now is that the Jihadis are far outnumbered by the Muslim community yet I see nothing (maybe I'm not in the right position to see) if the Muslim community making the gargantuan effort needed to stop this Jihad. For me, it's the Muslim community that needs to stop this, they have the key if there is one. If they don't, or if they are unable, then what else is there but to go back to what worked in WW2?
JMHO of course.

How would you define this Muslim community you talk about?it's not a monolith , you only have to look at how divided the UK is(brexit) this is the same old nonsense that all Muslims have to be responsible for the actions if an individual or a small group.

 

[clivehorridge]

I agree Clive.

The way I see it, in the UK in WW2 anyone of German origin arriving on our shores would immediately have been at least viewed with suspicion or more likely arrested or otherwise stopped and imprisoned. Whether or not they wore a German uniform. Is this right? I say yes, it's a precaution in a war.

Many years ago I remember that a Muslim (I don't remember who) declared 'Jihad' on the west. The west has not taken this seriously as far as I can tell but it should, with immediate effect. The same detention or expulsion of Muslim people, because Muslims have declared war, would no doubt be viewed with outrage. But would it be any less right than in WW2 time?

Not every German supported WW2, nor did many know what was actually going on in their country. Doubtless not every Muslim supports Jihad. There were many good Germans in WW2. There are many good Muslims in this time of Jihad. I believe the difference now is that the Jihadis are far outnumbered by the Muslim community yet I see nothing (maybe I'm not in the right position to see) if the Muslim community making the gargantuan effort needed to stop this Jihad. For me, it's the Muslim community that needs to stop this, they have the key if there is one. If they don't, or if they are unable, then what else is there but to go back to what worked in WW2?
JMHO of course.

I agree Rich, particularly with your parting comment. We hear very little in the way of condemnation of these attacks from the obvious Middle Eastern country leaders, Saudi, UAE, Qatar, Jordan, Iran and the like.

I've deliberately mixed them because one would presume a more positive response from the UAE compared with Saudi, yet the silence is deafening, so what are we to presume from this?

 

[Rob Cowell]

If any of you are old enough to remember. Was there ever a serious anti-Irish immigration movement to reduce the liklihood of terrorist attacks in the 70s and 80s? I don't remember one in the 90s. Just looking at Wikipedia for terrorist attacks in the Great Britain. 54 from the IRA & INLA. 5 from Islamic groups against UK targets, 2 against Israeli targets.

Statistically attacks are far less frequent since the enlargement of the EU in 2002. France has historically had a lot more attacks from Islamic groups, but they had Algeria as their Ireland.

 

[hopeless wanderer]

I agree Rich, particularly with your parting comment. We hear very little in the way of condemnation of these attacks from the obvious Middle Eastern country leaders, Saudi, UAE, Qatar, Jordan, Iran and the like.

I've deliberately mixed them because one would presume a more positive response from the UAE compared with Saudi, yet the silence is deafening, so what are we to presume from this?

I saw an article today about a Syrian rebel group supported by the above countries plus us and America.
They posted a video of them beheading a 10 year old kid.
It's been playing on my mind a lot today (my son turns 9 next week) what kind of complete fucking animal does that ? Every attack we see seems to outdo the last. I've got news fatigue if thats such a thing.
How many times must i change my facebook profile ? Whose flag do i display next ? Who am i supposed to #prayfor next ? When will this madness end.
This whole maelstrom of inhumanity is so frequent and regular and widespread i can't even call it inhumanity anymore.
This is humanity. This is what we have become.
I don't want to stop anyone from being safe, i don't want to tun ayone away who needs help, i don't want to endanger anyone here either.
This whole Muslim thing though is whipped into a frenzy for who knows what purpose.
The florida gunman was a closet gay and certainly didn't practice Islam like the guys i work with do, The luntic with the truck was hardly ever in a mosque and smoked during ramadan according to his Muslim neighbours. It seems a tan and a 'tache are the worst indicators of threat, the 7/7 attackers just looked like normal guys.
What price security ? Do we throw the baby out with the bathwater ? Muslims are as powerless to stop this as we are. As an example we can to a CRB check on a person and say they haven't molested a child so they can work in a school, but we cant drill into their skulls and see if they want to! All the security in the world and all the Draconian measures we take can't prevent an attack.
I would rather be flattened by a truck or blown to pieces than live in a paranoid state either me personally or as the state as an entitiy.

 

[Chas]

Nothing to do with terrorism but more shootings in Spalding, Lincolnshire, http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-36841202 from a witnesses statement it sounds like a shotgun was used

 

[Rob Cowell]

I agree Rich, particularly with your parting comment. We hear very little in the way of condemnation of these attacks from the obvious Middle Eastern country leaders, Saudi, UAE, Qatar, Jordan, Iran and the like.

I've deliberately mixed them because one would presume a more positive response from the UAE compared with Saudi, yet the silence is deafening, so what are we to presume from this?

Perhaps much of the Western press doesn't see it as newsworthy? I wonder how much airtime the Foreign Office condemnation of the recent Medina attacks got on the Saudi news?

http://www.middleeasteye.net/news/a...-condemn-vile-terrorist-attack-nice-860788171

 

[goodoldboy]

all the countries you mention Clive are sponsors , directly or indirectly various terrorist groups.Also , with the exception of Iran , they are allies & clients of ours which is why we turn a blind eye....The ambiguity shown by the US in the early hors of the Turkish coup attempt is another example of western hypocrisy.the current purge will be tolerated as long as Turkish airspace is opened to US forces.if not Erdogans days are numbered.The vast majority of civilian casualties in the war on terror have been Muslim & as the recent bombing in Baghdad has shown we are largely indifferent.

 

[MarkW]

Europol Report on security in the EU in 2015 published this week has some interesting information.

Full Report can be downloaded from here
https://www.europol.europa.eu/conte...member-states-2015-new-europol-report-reveals

It states "no concrete evidence to date that terrorist travellers systematically use the flow of refugees to enter Europe unnoticed". They do however report that 2 of the instigators of Paris attacks in November did use this route.

In the UK there were 103 terrorist attacks, the majority of which are thought to be in Northern Ireland.

Separatist attacks were higher in number than Jihadist. The largest number of arrests were Jihadists with 94% found guilty

 

[Chas]

Attacks in France since the Charlie Hebdo shootings in January 2015 http://www.middleeasteye.net/news/attacks-france-charlie-hebdo-slayings-279619230

 

[Chas]

Europol Report on security in the EU in 2015 published this week has some interesting information.


It states "no concrete evidence to date that terrorist travellers systematically use the flow of refugees to enter Europe unnoticed". They do however report that 2 of the instigators of Paris attacks in November did use this route.

So "No concrete evidence" then say Oh wait a mo 2 did use that method, a bit contradictory Mark, just how accurate is the rest of it eh?

 

[flint]

France has a history of brutality in its Arab colonies which has lived on in folk memories.
It seems that the Gulf states are more interested in keeping Shias out of the way and covertly funding IS, Al Qaeda and their Salafist doctrines serves them well. Their definition of a terrorist is not the same as ours. UAE and Saudi (and indeed US) troops have been fighting in Yemen, both because of Yemens strategic position and also because the Houthi are aligned with Iran (Shia). In this country we are at the edge of all this and to lump all Muslims together is somewhat missing the point.
As most of the criminal injuries (which are far more than from any terrorist attack) in this country are committed by people of all types and ethnicities, I can’t quite see how locking up people that might cause them, as a precautionary measure , would be justified or practical, plenty of home grown “nutters” or easily led people with a greivance out there. This is not that we should be complacent, but the object of the horrible attacks such as we’ve seen is to spread unrest, fear, disruption and division, which to a certain extent seems to be working.
I was talking with a soldier recently who had been serving in Iraq and Afghanistan, his opinion was that little would change through outside military intervention. Some people in those countries are indoctrinated virtually from birth in distrust and hatred of all those with different beliefs (as he said “arguing about who has the best imaginary friend”, a quote often attributed to Yasser Arafat, though probably wrongly) and education, which is sadly lacking for many, is the only way to change things in the long run.

 

[MarkW]

So "No concrete evidence" then say Oh wait a mo 2 did use that method, a bit contradictory Mark, just how accurate is the rest of it eh?

Europol's report says there is no evidence of that route being used systematically, as in a regular planned system. My interpretation is that the 2 Paris attackers used that route but not as a result of some grand IS scheme

As for the reports accuracy, well who knows but I'll take it over the questionable information published by our tabloid media. As an aside, in the EU Thread there was a lot of posts regarding manipulation of the press and media yet when it comes to discussions on immigration/terrorism the same media/press is used as a source of credible information