Paranoid about injector seals.

[Hutton]

Since becoming an owner of a nice 120 Cruiser I have been enjoying finding out about the vehicle through the forums. This forum seems to me to be the most informed I would therefore like to ask a question. I realise that some owners have fallen foul of the copper injector seal problem. My engine has down 75,000 miles and so is getting to the stage where it may be a problem. My question really is how widespread was the problem? Is it just a few vehicles or should I seriously consider changing the injector seals as I know my vehicle still has the copper ones. After the vehicle purchase I am skint and so can't afford it just now. Have many people here changed there seals? Is anyone approaching 200,000miles with copper seals still intact. I ask all this as I propose to be keeping this vehicle for some time. Sorry if all this is cumbersome but it's preying on my mind.

Signed,
Hutton the paranoid

 

[Trevor]

Hi,

I was in a similar position when I bought mine last year. I decided to get mine checked out by my local independant garage during it's service. They popped the sump and checked the oil pickup pipe gauze as well as taking the injectors out.

The seals were copper and I got them changed for the aluminium ones as a precaution, the condition of them were they had cracks from the outer edges working inwards, my truck had done 106,000 miles. I forget exactly how much this extra work cost but it was in the order of £70 - £100 including parts. I did it for piece of mind more than anything else after reading the woes on the forum from other owners. £100 versus new engine was no contest in my book.

 

[Gary Stockton]

The issue IMHO is limited but serious if it occurs. Change the seals and the oil pick up for peace of mind.

Cheers

 

[Hutton]

Thank for the replies chaps. Erring on the side of caution seems to be the way to go. I actually was surprised at the cost of £100 to change the injectors. I thought I had read somewhere it would cost in the region of £600! This makes me feel much better and as soon as pennies allow I'll get the job done.

After that I'll tackle the rust bubbles under the 'Land Cruiser' badge on the tailgate.

 

[Trevor]

My injectors were fine, it was just a change of the washers from copper to aluminium that the injectors sit on, plus the additional seals that are around the injector shaft which you have to change anyway as a result of removing the injectors. Parts came in at about £40 I think. You keep your existing injectors.

 

[Chris]

I had a 120 on a 55 plate and mine was exhibiting symptoms at 35k miles. Sounded abysmal. It went before I had to do anything about it.

When I changed my injector tips on my 80, I noticed that part number for the washers had changed. They are now aluminium for the 1HDT motor too. I paid less than £20 for six for main dealer.

The other seal that needs changing is a simple o ring that's there to keep crap from dropping inside the injector port in the head. I just used 6 rings out of my set in the garage (one of those bulk multi sized boxes that you can buy for a tenner) with a little oil smeared on them to help them slide in. I guess depending on how bad the washers have got, you might need to clean the port out too. No point putting 'jectors back into a dirty hole. I used a shot gun brush which was the perfect size.

I can't imagine that the 120 is very much different to this. Really a pretty straight forward job with the spanners. Getting the injectors out can be a challenge and you mustn't twist them. I took some 6mm studding which screwed into the top of the injector where the overflow union fits and used a sliding weight on the studding with a nut and oversize washer on the end to effect a homemade slide hammer. This pops them out very nicely.

Chris

 

[Graham]

Is anyone approaching 200,000miles with copper seals still intact.

Approached 200,00 2 years ago.
I have 235,xxx miles, or some thing like that.
Mine is June 2005, on an '05' plate.
Serviced from day 1 with Toyota main dealer.
When I asked Ian, the service guy, about the injector washers, he asked why change them now?
I actually don't know if mine are copper or alluminiumn.
Perhaps there is an engine number, from when on, the injectors received the newer washers.
I also asked about the oil strainer pick up in the sump, but, actually, I can't remember what he said about that, if they did it or not, or suggested, leave it alone.

I really should look into what injector seal washers are fitted to mine.

I actually have an almost complete engine in my garage, I think I remember its a 2006 or 2007, with 60,xxx miles.
I bought it last year as a precaution, and it was cheap.
so if it does let go one day, it's just labour and inconvienience.

Graham

 

[Crispin]

There was a lot of hype about it and a lot of a 120 drivers were joining the other forum because their engines had gone pop. In the greater scheme of things, I would suspect the failure rate was low vs the number of 120s sold.

If you are worried and don't have the cash to fix it now, give an extra oil change. The seal cracks and lets gases into the crank case which then [some sciency person can fill it in ) which eventually block up the oil pickup. If you change the oil before it gets too bad, you might buy yourself some time? That's my theory at least

 

[Hutton]

Much appreciated Crispin. Many Thanks!

 

[Crispin]

Usual disclaimer etc etc. Your mileage may vary

I now know of two people who have changed them as part of PM and found there to be cracks and a slightly blocked oil pickup. Does not really say much though.

If you really paranoid about it, take the bottom sump off (about 20 M6 bolts) and check the pickup. Remove and clean if need be. Should also be an indication of whether the problem exists or not

 

[Hutton]

Thanks again for the replies. I've got a ballpark price of £250 for replacing the seals by my local Toyota dealer. So, as soon as the jar on the mantlepiece is full I'm off to get the job done.

 

[Crispin]

not too shabby. Would be interested to see what condition they are in.

 

[Hutton]

Yep. so will I. If they are in superb shape with no signs of failing then I'll just have to accept that my engine may have gone on for 200,000 miles without a problem. However, you never know! I'll report on the matter when I can afford to get the job done. I'm trying to sell a bass guitar at the moment to finance the job.

 

[chriscolleman]

There was a lot of hype about it and a lot of a 120 drivers were joining the other forum because their engines had gone pop. In the greater scheme of things, I would suspect the failure rate was low vs the number of 120s sold.

If you are worried and don't have the cash to fix it now, give an extra oil change. The seal cracks and lets gases into the crank case which then [some sciency person can fill it in ) which eventually block up the oil pickup. If you change the oil before it gets too bad, you might buy yourself some time? That's my theory at least

Good old black sludge.

Exhaust gasses mixing with oil past its prime creates black sludge clogging up your lubrication circuit.
High end oils have sludge inhibitors and cleaning agents.
I'm pretty sure there are some other fbi, csi, dea, cia agents in there as well

Older engines that run on more heavy weight oils just tend to not start in the morning.
Some diesel in stead of oil cleans out the lubrication circuit.

The newer engines that pure a lot more torque and horsepower out of their volume need a whole lot more attention to lubrication!

 

[Hutton]

The bass guitar sold at the weekend so I can now get booked in for injector seal replacement. I'm also getting a warranty job done at the same time. I noticed rust bubbles on my tailgate between the 'Land Cruiser' badge and the chrome strip above the number plate. When I pointed this out to the dealer he agreed that the rust was coming from the inside out and that the 12 year Toyota warranty should cover a repair. The local Toyota warranty guy has agreed and so it's now a case of booking my cruiser in for both jobs. I'll report when the jobs are done which will probably be in about three - four weeks time.

 

[Hutton]

My Cruiser is booked in next Monday to get the new injector seals fitted. I'll report next week when the job is done.

 

[Hutton]

The Good News: The injector seals have been replaced. The old ones showed no signs of splitting, wear or whatever. (pics to follow) Everything is therefore fine in the engine department.

The Bad News: I mentioned that I was also getting a warranty job done on the tailgate as there were a few rust bubbles between the chrome strip and the 'Land Cruiser' badge. When the bodyshop started the repair job they found extensive rust to such an extent that it is uneconomical to repair. I have therefore to get a brand new tailgate under warranty. I will have to run about with the badgeless rusty tailgate until a new one is delivered and painted up. So it's not really bad news in that I get a new tailgate.

Also, just in case anyone is getting worried about their tailgates. The dealer reckons that the problem started eight years ago when the cruisers' first set of number plates were fitted and paint was broken. Over the years the rust crept through the metal undetected until the rust bubbles appeared.

Anyway, the dealer will provide a courtesy car, on their insurance, whilst the tailgate is being fitted. I must say that I am impressed with my local dealer. They have been very efficient and helpful. Toyota have also been true to the terms of their 12 year anti-perforation warranty. After owning Land Rovers for many years I am absolutely certain that I would not have received the same service from that organisation.

Stay tuned for the next instalment!

 

[mjw1999]

I will be having my Injector seals replaced in the next month. The cruiser has done 45k. I'm just wondering if it is worth having the injectors ultrasonically cleaned and back flushed while they are out. Does anyone have any thoughts.
Also does anyone have the part numbers to complete the job as my regular garage will be doing the job and not mr T.

 

[Crispin]

that's good Hutton - so they were the copper ones but showed no signs of cracking. I am sure there are plenty of us riding around with them perfectly ok...

mjw1999 - the easiest would be to call up toyota and ask them. There were a lot of seals and washers etc which needed replacing. I have an email somewhere with the details - if I can find it I'll post it.
Hutton may have the part numbers to hand?

 

[Graham]

that's good Hutton - so they were the copper ones but showed no signs of cracking. I am sure there are plenty of us riding around with them perfectly ok...

mjw1999 - the easiest would be to call up toyota and ask them. There were a lot of seals and washers etc which needed replacing. I have an email somewhere with the details - if I can find it I'll post it.
Hutton may have the part numbers to hand?

.
Does kind of make me nervous.
Even though my local Mr T, did say from the outset, "Why do you want to change them"
If it's dome almost 250k, then I don't think theye are going to fail now.

He may be right, and Hutton demonstrated this.
We await the good clear, hi res. photos.
I still think it is a very, very small %, but when it happens to you, it's the biggest thing in the world.

Graham