The corona virus thread

[goodoldboy]

Beginning to end its always been about manageable casualty numbers . The problem isn't going away but confidence is growing that they have the facilities they need to manage until a cure is found .

We've had over a week of constant news articles about the easing of restrictions & the details of the 4 stage plan.The government here is in minority so a lot of horse trading is going on & if course the opposition are making good use of the crisis to attack the PSOE & Podemos , along with the Catalan separatists.The situation is surreal with glaring contradictions occurring every day .This is so far outside most people's experience or imagination that it's no wonder that folks are confused.Ignorance is the grease that helps the wheels of our society turn & stupidity is valued & encouraged.

 

[jibberjabber]

And why are we the UK at the top of the leader board for Covid-19 deaths, all because a few don't like what they perceive as 'Forced Conformity' not 'Sound Advice'.

 

[Chris]

JJ I'm not sure that all really hangs together you know. Why are we at the top? Well I'm sure we're not making the figures up, so it must be at least that number, yes, but is that more than other countries? We just can't tell. We can't. Even the experts can't. All we can say is how many deaths there have been here in the UK - pretty much. It may be more than other countries have reported, but let's not place too large a significance over any league tables. This race isn't run yet and you never know, we may well be outsripped by others who jump the gun on relaxing their measures too soon.

Now in terms of the numbers of cases all told, do you genuinely believe that this is due in any great part to people who have ignored the largely discretionary rules? Personally, yes, I'd put them in the village stocks and pelt them with rotten fruit and used nappies ans tattoo their foreheads with "I am a total tw@t".

We've been asked to stay at home so stay at home. I know I could go out on my bike and not meet anyone, interact with anyone nor touch anything, but I won't because we've been asked not to. I know I could and not contribute one iota to the spread, but that's not the point is it. Why would I think myself so special?

So these ass hats who are breaking the rules should be publicly whipped from my perspective, but not necessarily for actually spreading the virus, but for not doing what the rest of us are. I just cannot agree that the UK's toll is higher than anywhere else because some people have decided to ignore the stay at home requests. Don't forget that this idea would also presuppose that these A-holes were all contagious too. which statistically can't be true. But be clear I am not saying their actions are OK in any regard at all.

There is way more legitimate people movement than these few pillocks that could be spreading the virus around - as simply as going to Tesco to shop. Remember that children of key workers are at school, all mixing and then going home. That surely has to be a greater potential than someone going to their caravan or some other non essential outing.

Personally I am concerned about even the notion that some measures may be relaxed. And furious that discussion on the very subject once again seem to have been driven my the media. Most notably the BBC. It's emotive I know, but I feel that if we take our foot of the pedal now, all of the suffering, grief and hardship will have basically been for nothing.

 

[Towpack]

I can't believe anyone is truly ignorant of what an out of control pandemic would actually mean. There are certainly many self centred arseholes flouting the rules simply because they don't like being told what to do, add to that those who push the boundaries with their own interpretation of what "lockdown" really means and there you have the problem the government is facing with first post-lockdown steps. However small these first steps are, many will be prepared to take things just that bit further, "give him an inch and he'll take a yard" as the saying goes and the longer the lockdown goes on the more are likely to start thinking like that. One thing is certain, a second possibly much worse spike in infections would be catastrophic in both lives and financial losses.

 

[Chas]

I can't believe anyone is truly ignorant of what an out of control pandemic would actually mean. There are certainly many self centred arseholes flouting the rules simply because they don't like being told what to do, add to that those who push the boundaries with their own interpretation of what "lockdown" really means and there you have the problem the government is facing with first post-lockdown steps. However small these first steps are, many will be prepared to take things just that bit further, "give him an inch and he'll take a yard" as the saying goes and the longer the lockdown goes on the more are likely to start thinking like that. One thing is certain, a second possibly much worse spike in infections would be catastrophic in both lives and financial losses.

Yes TP, I can see it being like the VE Day celebrations all over again.

 

[guyc]

The UK is the most densely populated country in Europe. England, as opposed to the UK, is significantly more densely populated than anywhere else in Europe.

Houses in the UK are amongst the smallest, in terms of floor area, in the developed world.

It makes social distancing, which is a proven way of reducing the transmission, more difficult in the UK than elsewhere in Europe. I don't think having the highest number of deaths in Europe is a particular surprise. I'm not condoning flouting the lockdown but I can see why the UK is struggling relative to other countries.

Hopefully the easing of the lockdown won't cause a second wave of infections. It certainly appears to put those that are vulnerable in a worse predicament. Other than the economics and lockdown fatigue, I'm struggling to see a justification for easing the lockdown.

 

[Chris]

That's very true indeed Guy. I was saying that only this afternoon. Another difference is the multi generational living in Europe. Here we stick all the old folks in one place rather than spread them out!

I genuinely cannot forecast where we will go from here. But the initial idea was to not swamp the system - which we managed either through luck or judgement - in order to protect the most vulnerable. Of which so far some 30k + have sadly succumbed. So, I'm not sure how successful we've actually been if that makes sense. I'm quite sure it could have been worse for sure, but it still seems a lot given how hard everyone has worked to try and managed the spread. And of course it's still going. Anyone who says, it's looking good, only 600 deaths today needs a beating.

I am NOT criticising any authority, party or individual here; to say someone hasn't a clue is to say you'd have done it better and in my book and I don't think that is fair. We could have gone into measures sooner, yes maybe, but what effect what that really have had? We'll never know. But I agree with TP here that people are going to get lockdown fatigue and start drifting from the plan. I think that we probably need to do something different to keep the intent fresh. People will be settling into a new norm and now that there are supplies of toilet rolls in the shops and flour and we know when the queues are short at the supermarket, people will start to push the boundaries. If you look at the current measures and compare them to what other countries have called lockdown, we've had it easy. More a like a set of guidelines. It's difficult to see which of the so called rules could be relaxed safely.

I keep thinking of the film 28 weeks later. If you've seen that you'll know what I mean. All that effort and .......

 

[jibberjabber]

I bow to your superior knowledge, and insight.

 

[Tractionman]

JJ I'm not sure that all really hangs together you know. Why are we at the top? Well I'm sure we're not making the figures up, so it must be at least that number, yes, but is that more than other countries? We just can't tell. We can't. Even the experts can't. All we can say is how many deaths there have been here in the UK - pretty much. It may be more than other countries have reported, but let's not place too large a significance over any league tables. This race isn't run yet and you never know, we may well be outsripped by others who jump the gun on relaxing their measures too soon.

Now in terms of the numbers of cases all told, do you genuinely believe that this is due in any great part to people who have ignored the largely discretionary rules? Personally, yes, I'd put them in the village stocks and pelt them with rotten fruit and used nappies ans tattoo their foreheads with "I am a total tw@t".

We've been asked to stay at home so stay at home. I know I could go out on my bike and not meet anyone, interact with anyone nor touch anything, but I won't because we've been asked not to. I know I could and not contribute one iota to the spread, but that's not the point is it. Why would I think myself so special?

So these ass hats who are breaking the rules should be publicly whipped from my perspective, but not necessarily for actually spreading the virus, but for not doing what the rest of us are. I just cannot agree that the UK's toll is higher than anywhere else because some people have decided to ignore the stay at home requests. Don't forget that this idea would also presuppose that these A-holes were all contagious too. which statistically can't be true. But be clear I am not saying their actions are OK in any regard at all.

There is way more legitimate people movement than these few pillocks that could be spreading the virus around - as simply as going to Tesco to shop. Remember that children of key workers are at school, all mixing and then going home. That surely has to be a greater potential than someone going to their caravan or some other non essential outing.

Personally I am concerned about even the notion that some measures may be relaxed. And furious that discussion on the very subject once again seem to have been driven my the media. Most notably the BBC. It's emotive I know, but I feel that if we take our foot of the pedal now, all of the suffering, grief and hardship will have basically been for nothing.

Very well put, Chris. You should be the one making official statements.
(No sarcasm intended, and I am not mocking you)

 

[jibberjabber]

Yes, lots of differing opinions flying about, from one extreme to the other and all stops inbetween, we are all 'armchair aficionados' apart from the experts.

Stay Safe, life is not a rehearsal.

 

[Shayne]

to say someone hasn't a clue is to say you'd have done it better and in my book and I don't think that is fair.

Nobody knows and 50 years from now they will still be analyzing questionable statistics and gossip to come up with contradicting answers depending on who you ask .

 

[Chas]

According to this poll the majority of the UK want to continue the lockdown.

Website Temporarily Unavailable

 

[goodoldboy]

We've been asked to stay at home so stay at home. I know I could go out on my bike and not meet anyone, interact with anyone nor touch anything, but I won't because we've been asked not to. I know I could and not contribute one iota to the spread, but that's not the point is it. Why would I think myself so special?

I agree wholeheartedly .My take on individual liberty is that it ends where it starts to infringe on the liberty of others or causes harm.The collective health & well-being of us all should come before the wants of the individual.
The return to normal narrative is being ramped up around the world & the new normal will mean acceptable amounts of deaths as the economy will take precedent over health.As citizens we have , i think , a duty to criticise our governments & at least try to play a part in shaping their response to this.Will politicians cynically use this crisis to attack their opponents & push their own agendas ?you can bet on that one.To single out individuals & their actions is an old tactic , publish the most egregious cases & whip up a moral panic , the effect of these anecdotes being to draw attention away from other possible problems.The idea that draconian measures to enforce confinement would work means , on a practical level the complete suspension of democracy & troops on the streets .This also ignores other sources of contagion such as workplaces & other actions deemed essential.

Another difference is the multi generational living in Europe. Here we stick all the old folks in one place rather than spread them out!

To further muddy the waters old folks homes in Spain have been the epicentre of the contagion with no clear explanation of why.One clear statistic is that the two wealthiest regions of Spain - Madrid & Cataluña - have the highest death rates. Those on the left have have claimed that the fact that these two regions spending on health is the lowest in the country & that have the most privatised health care.Population density & visitor numbers may be a factor , again we don't know.

Hopefully the easing of the lockdown won't cause a second wave of infections. It certainly appears to put those that are vulnerable in a worse predicament. Other than the economics and lockdown fatigue, I'm struggling to see a justification for easing the lockdown.

My fear is that a second wave is almost inevitable & in Spain sparsely populated regions will be hit hard .These are places with an aged population & limited hospital capacity.The opening of bars & restaurants is going ahead here in a limited way with outside seating opening up first.The government is mindful that a lot of places make most of their money from May to the end of August.
We're in uncharted waters with this & the idea of a return to normality is a pipe dream.

 

[jibberjabber]

It was a bit challenging but too hot to stop, slight risk of landmines in that area as well. Driver of the other cruiser described it as f###ing epic when we finally found somewhere to camp

Hi Mark,

Any progress, any news, are you on your way home?

 

[Shayne]

Perhaps we should add a poll to this thread just for a well rounded perspective

How much money has the lockdown cost you financially so far personally -

A, not more than £1000
B , not more than £5000
C, not more than £10,000
B, more and still counting

 

[jibberjabber]

A.

But if there were a E, it would be 0 nothing so far

 

[Chris]

What about F. How much money have you made from the this by scamming people?

 

[MarkW]

Hi Mark,

Any progress, any news, are you on your way home?

Bit of an update from the furthest most land of the setting sun. After contacting my MP and getting a reply from him at 7pm Saturday night (I didn't tell him I voted for the opposition ) and also being put in touch with the Defense Attaché at the Embassy via a friend, I've had emails and phone calls from the Embassy and now booked on a ferry to France next month.

The community of 35 refugees here is starting to split up over the next few weeks as others leave for home. It'll be a sad end to a pleasant lock down.

Still low numbers here, just over 5000 cases and under 200 deaths, early lockdown combined with limited travelling usually, by the rural populations has probably helped a bit. The worst hit regions are the big city areas, Casablanca, Marrakech etc. Some regions have no reported cases but they are very remote desert areas with only a few 1000 inhabitants.

The government are discussing the deconfinement programme and are expected to decide on the outcome the beginning of next week. At the moment it looks like lockdown will be lifted region by region depending on the number of cases, so one area may lift completely while others stay restricted. Shops and businesses will have a staged reopening from early June along with the resumption of flights etc. Border reopening completely toward July.

The big problem with the border reopening is the Spanish are not playing ball (no surprise really), they are quite happy for Morocco to allow them to repatriate Spanish nationals but wont reciprocate they deal the other way. Something that may hurt Spain more than Morocco in the long term, particularly the Spanish enclaves of Ceuta and Mellila. The Spanish position is staring to cause a lot of resentment with EU nationals who have been stuck here for 2 months after Spain closed their border at Ceuta late March.

Looking further ahead, plans are underway for a resumption in foreign tourist trade late summer and most of the big rallies whose events were cancelled are rescheduled for the autumn. The summer months are pretty slow for international tourism anyway so the authorities are focused for domestic tourism first.

 

[jibberjabber]

Bit of an update from the furthest most land of the setting sun. After contacting my MP and getting a reply from him at 7pm Saturday night (I didn't tell him I voted for the opposition ) and also being put in touch with the Defense Attaché at the Embassy via a friend, I've had emails and phone calls from the Embassy and now booked on a ferry to France next month.

The community of 35 refugees here is starting to split up over the next few weeks as others leave for home. It'll be a sad end to a pleasant lock down.

Still low numbers here, just over 5000 cases and under 200 deaths, early lockdown combined with limited travelling usually, by the rural populations has probably helped a bit. The worst hit regions are the big city areas, Casablanca, Marrakech etc. Some regions have no reported cases but they are very remote desert areas with only a few 1000 inhabitants.

The government are discussing the deconfinement programme and are expected to decide on the outcome the beginning of next week. At the moment it looks like lockdown will be lifted region by region depending on the number of cases, so one area may lift completely while others stay restricted. Shops and businesses will have a staged reopening from early June along with the resumption of flights etc. Border reopening completely toward July.

The big problem with the border reopening is the Spanish are not playing ball (no surprise really), they are quite happy for Morocco to allow them to repatriate Spanish nationals but wont reciprocate they deal the other way. Something that may hurt Spain more than Morocco in the long term, particularly the Spanish enclaves of Ceuta and Mellila. The Spanish position is staring to cause a lot of resentment with EU nationals who have been stuck here for 2 months after Spain closed their border at Ceuta late March.

Looking further ahead, plans are underway for a resumption in foreign tourist trade late summer and most of the big rallies whose events were cancelled are rescheduled for the autumn. The summer months are pretty slow for international tourism anyway so the authorities are focused for domestic tourism first.

So, a pinhole of light at the end or the tunnel, well done, good news, fingers crossed .

A bit sad that we wont have our Moroccan correspondent much longer.

 

[jibberjabber]

It might have been said as I tend not to watch the news, I know it has been mentioned how much profit the supermarkets have made, I have not herd anything mentioned on how much profit Funeral Directors have made.

Oh well, back to the G&T on the sunlounger by the pool.