The people have spoken

[Shayne]

We can vote for EU employees not national government , that's why millions of people never vote , they know they can't change a thing .

"The people have spoken". I think they are going to speak again in a second referendum, we will stay in and that , hopefully, will be the end of it all.

That's EU democracy Frank , the only vote that counts is the one they want . However i don't believe for a moment project fear has changed a single mind for those who wanted out and the blatantly obvious attempt to FORCE us to stay in would hope will only anger people who don't really care one way or another into voting out if a second referendum is run .

There are no morals or principle's in politics that's why in the free world everyone has a vote that counts , in the absence of conscience there is consequence which is an inconvenience the EU has brushed aside .

 

[moggy1968]

I notice you don't explain how leaving the EU improves UK politics.

Any examples of the EU "not giving a shit about what we think"? There are 28 members so there are going to be times when we are not on the winning vote side, but that would pretty much define democracy.

Any examples of MEPs and the Council being overriden? I know the Council (elected governments, that we elect) can override Parliament after consulting them, but only for national interest policies like border security. And council votes need members with 65% of the population, so as the 3rd most populous nation in the EU we clearly have more clout than most there.

Do you mean other than all the pieces of legislation we have objected to or suggested changes to that have remained unchanged?
where did I say MEPs get ‘over-ridden’. Oh yes, I didn’t.
I didn’t say how leaving the eu improves U.K. politics because that wasn’t the question and isn’t relevant. I generally try and stay on topic, although I appreciate that’s something of an alien concept in the remain camp where rhetoric, hypothesis and alarmist make believe are the order of the day.

Shayne summarises it rather well for you above.

There is, frankly, little value in discussing the matter. Whatever I say won’t make any difference to your view, regardless of any evidence to the contrary.

 

[Shayne]

It took Dyson 4 years to have a single rule reviewed because it was unfairly bias in favour of German products (though personally i think most of the junk they sell can be found on the likes of Alibaba for less than 3/4's the price) , and that guy aint short of a few quid . So just another few 10's of thousands of such court cases , if won by the accusers , and we might actually have a free market , possibly even one that works in favour of the environment rather than just using it as an excuse to deny competition and brainwash kids .

 

[chapel gate]

Ive always liked to catch up on the news of a morning with a brew before I go to work.
the last six months though I cant bear to watch it. the negativity from the media is astounding.
I much prefer to watch milkshake with my 2 year old. I get much more sense out of it. cbeebies has some good stuff too, but the bbc even manage to make that politically biased...

 

[goodoldboy]

So a deal is done behind closed doors by a party without an overall majority , who govern with the help if a religious fundamentals party , who they openly bribed.Is this the sort of sovereignty Brexit supporters want? As ordinary people we have little or no say about how our countries are run.Every 4 or 5 years we can pick someone we've never met & basically give them warrant to do whatever they & their bosses want.We could paint faces on wooden spoons instead & we'd get the same results.
Mostly on this,site it's crystal clear what is opinion & what's fact - just take a look at some of the threads where a group of enthusiastic amateurs can get to the bottom of a complex technical problem.
Most opinion on Brexit I've heard seems to be based on an emotional response to vague accusations where the the EU could be substituted for almost any powerful organization.

 

[BobMurphy]

A Bike Club mag had a quote attributed to Joseph Stalin:

"The people who cast the votes decide nothing - the people who count them decide everything".

Bob.

 

[Chris]

I really shouldn't get involved but I can't help it.

Media. That's who really holds the power. Look at the interviews on the street; people simply repeat what they've heard. It's like a nation of parrots. When we want your opinion, we'll give it to you. I'll warrant that most people don't even know that the backstop is or what it means. I was googling stuff and the top question, apparently, asked of google was ...

What does BREXIT stand for. IE what does the word mean. Are you kidding?

But here's the thing. It is the will of the people...etc etc, well 52 played 48 (72% bothered to vote) which is hardly an overwhelming majority. If that was an election it would be a hung vote. And yet it's accepted, the media accept it and the politicians accept it and we accept it.

Last night we had 200 versus 117 in favour of the PM - but is that accepted as a majority? No not a bit of it. It's being touted as a crushing defeat, in ruins, beaten, damaged but yes technically she won. WTF? 52% is a clear declaration but 63% isn't?

You see there's less of a story in her winning than in her losing. So let's just portray this a s a loss. Simple.

I'm just staggered that anyone anywhere thought we'd be better off in ALL things by leaving. Most people seem to have voted leave on a very narrow range of topics but any deal will have to span thousands of issues right down to what colour socks you can wear. There's just simply no deal that can win 100% of those arguments therefore when voting leave, people should have understood that in some respects we'll be worse off.
What it seems has been negotiated (I'm no expert but I'm good at being angry) is the best deal on the topics that matter the most to people who voted leave. Sovereignty, currency immigration etc etc. But things like the size of a peach, the length of a standard pause, how many gobstoppers there are to a kilo (2.2 lbs) might not go our way.

You have to remember that many of the 27 have said they don't want the UK to leave. well of course they don't. So, A. How hard will they try to make a good deal for us so that we leave?
B. How much time do they want to spend on something that's not their main concern outside of WTF to do when we have left?

If someone thinks (whilst sober and not off their head on crack) that they could go back and get a better deal then they'd better step up now - but given that they'd already be in the conservative party, where were they when May was negotiating the current deal? In the pub??? It's a conservative deal, not Mrs May's solo deal.

OK I feel better.

Nurse I want to go back to my room now please.

 

[Shayne]

It's mid winter the roofs leaking and ready to collapse in on us , lots of cost to remove and replace it , the weather ain't good so we can expect some internal damage before the job is finished - more cost . So what you gonna do -

A:- Hide with your head under the blankets hoping it doesn't collapse
B:- Accept your short term losses are an investment in long term gain and tear the roof off .

May knew when she took the job it was career suicide and she has to be respected for that , she's still in the job because nobody else want's to take their turn at the poison chalice until "it was somebody else's fault"

Say's it all that the Volkswagen Group has more clout on an political scale than the Prime minister of the United Kingdom ,

 

[Iwan]

Lets tare the roof off the house, then live in the house with no roof on it.
Then complain that we didn't know that house would be wet with no roof and have no value! Lol

 

[MarkW]

A sensible person would call in a qualified expert then following their advice patch the roof to keep the rain out, prop it up to stop it collapsing and not follow what their unqualified mate told them down the pub.

Then remove the roof when better weather arrives in spring...........win win

 

[Shayne]

Oh yes we could call a German expert who would rent Chinese us props at a ridiculous rate for however long it took for us to move out so they could knock the house down and build a supermarket . Because its better for our children to have no greater hope than that of becoming minimum wage slaves - if they are lucky .

 

[chadr]

The cheese submarine analogy is good - if you haven't seen it, a copy of the tweets are here

The follow-up tweets are hilarious too.

 

[SimonD]

 

[SimonD]

Chris is right about the media too - pick most reasons the EU are a media target and you can find the actual facts here https://blogs.ec.europa.eu/ECintheUK/euromyths-a-z-index/ . For the Monty Python fans out there "What have the romans ever done for me?" . Well put in your postcode and find out here https://www.myeu.uk/#/ . These are the positive stories that have to come out if there is a second referendum - if they don't, history may repeat.

 

[Shayne]

https://blogs.ec.europa.eu/ECintheUK/euromyths-a-z-index/

I got bored of trying to count how many times the word "force" was used in that link , but i never seen the word "dictator" used once , strange that from unbiased media .

 

[MarkW]

OMG

 

[flint]

The EU has been an effective bar to dictatorships arising, this was amongst the original ideas during its formation, to promote democracy. It's easy to forget how many countries, now members of the EU, used to be dictatorships. Dictatorships where open debate, as in this forum, could have led to imprisonment or worse.

 

[Mojo]

I didn't have status to vote in 2016. But I would have voted Leave. Despite the BREXIT mess being played out over the media, democracy demands respecting and executing the result of one ballot before allowing another on the same issue. Talk of a second referendum would be an astonishing leap of illogic as the UK as a nation attempts to justify repeated voting until we get the result we want.
As for leaving with a deal, Greece, Italy, Portugal and Spain (who are all bankrupt) can't wait for a ruling allowing unilateral withdrawal; then it's game on as any member nation blackmails the EU for concessions by triggering and withdrawing with impunity! UK Parliament should have voted and we should leave with no deal.

Poor EU.

 

[Chris]

It's a convoluted argument and one that seems to get lost in the shouting. Hindsight is a wonderful thing. But it does seem that 48% of the population who voted had that gift!

The referendum had one simple question and that was should we stay or should we leave. The leavers won. OK park that.
But, there is a second question that needs answering and that is - under what conditions would you leave?
The first question is a bit like asking 'are you hungry' yes or no? And the second question is when and what would you like to eat?
I'm sure that even without saying it, the leave voters had in their mind visions of rainbows and unicorns. If they'd been informed on the ballot paper vote stay in as we are or all be sent to Mount Doom in Mordor to be punished for all eternity, they probably wouldn't have voted leave. You see the simple truth is that people were not aware of the consequences of voting leave. I'm pretty sure as a remainer, that there are some benefits to be had by leaving. But I could see that on balance the act of leaving would be open heart surgery. In other words better to stay than go through the surgery for uncertain potential benefits.

If we could reverse time, go to the EU and get a deal (like we have) FIRST and then put that deal to the country and ask - if these are the consequences of leaving who would vote to leave we might have seen a different result.

It's simple psychology really. If you don't understand the consequences of your actions, it makes logical decision making very difficult. However, if you are 'sold' benefits that are termed soon, certain and positive, you'll be hugely influenced. And that what people were given largely - vote leave and you'll get this....
They couldn't read the small print becaue it hadn't been written until now.

I've spoken to several leavers who have said, I know I voted leave, but I didn't vote for this!

I'm in two minds about the call for a second referendum. You cannot run the same vote. But you can have a follow up. I do see that as a possibility BUT with the caveat that someone with half a brain cell writes the question.

It's a shame in a way that we can't just have a referendum for those who voted leave in the first ballot. They voted to leave so surely they should have some input into accepting the conditions of leaving.
Now the question is that given there is NO other deal available or going to be struck, what would happen if the leavers voted not to accept that single offer? Well there'd be two choices. Leave with no deal at all, like walking away from a restaurant without paying or to say in the case of no deal, we'd like to change our minds and stay.

The whole thing has been shockingly staged right from agreeing to hold a referendum in the very first place.

The sad thing is that in all likelihood, once we are out all of the things that really made people vote leave won't be fixed.

My F.I.L who's 85 voted to leave. I asked him why. One issue. That was it. He wanted to stop all these foreigners coming over here. Which foreigners, I asked. Well the ones coming from Africa and Asia. Right, but you do realise that they aren't Europeans, don't you .....

 

[Shayne]

I voted for a catastrophe so severe of consequence for the whole EU including the UK that it would cause even Juncker to sober up and question his own arrogance .

There ain't no poppies and rainbows in my thinking , in principal the EU is a good thing but its gone far beyond that principal , its become a behemoth control freak leeching everything in its path for profit - and where is that profit going ....... to promote austerity ?

The threat of a financial depression like never before seen would i hope clear heads , force the zealots to accept the EU in its current form does not and will not work for the vast majority of people .

Nobody turn away 66 million "wealthy" customers but to vote out is the only way to pull the blinkers off .

Ultimately its better for everyone if the game isn't played with loaded dice .