The people have spoken

Paddler Ed

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Based on my time here in Australia, and talking with other people who are not Australian born, people have a problem with foreigners who aren't the same as them...


Talking with someone who is Canadian (but now Australian) they were saying someone was having a rant at them about migration, and all the foreigners coming into the country... they did point out that this conversation included them...

Like Steve, I have someone in their 90's who complained in the past about migration into the UK, with the added irony that she was German...

Often we see the migration of those who are different to us as the problem; those who are the same as us are not the problem (to the same extent).

Picking up on someone's comment re young people - I think that there are people who still want to enter industries and trades, but the sharp knife was run through the training schemes by the elected governments back in the 1980s and 1990s... if not before... Now, it's cheaper to import a tradesman from Poland/Hungary/Romania who has been taught properly to do the job, rather than someone pushed through a college course part time by a company who wants them to be earning a full wage ASAP, instead of being a properly apprenticed tradesman.
 
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ByronJ

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It is a small island Chas, and currently a laughing stock, well the so called government is. The armed forces are tiny, ill equipped, underfunded and short of many thousands of personnel. There is no empire, times have moved on.
I do not have a strong view either way on whether the UK should leave the EU or stay. However what is clear that over the last 20 years or so many skilled and semi-skilled workers have benefited from an increased standard of living while the those with less to offer have seen their standard of living fall. Youth unemployment across much of Europe is very high and the far right readily capitalizes on the unhappiness and dissatisfaction of these unfortunate people with too much time on their hands. If you leave a large group of people fall behind for too long you risk destabilising society and "Brexit" is one symptom of that. This dissatisfaction is becoming a problem in much of the EU.

Reading through this thread I am struck by how the the majority of insults, mud slinging and nonsense about "empire" come from those who express a strong desire for the UK to stay within the EU.

Steve, I find your description of the UK as a "Poxy little Island" Juvenile and ill informed. As for describing our armed forces as "Tiny, ill equipped, underfunded and short of many thousands of personnel". That is clearly a statement made with the idea that stating something strongly and emotionally is going to make it true. Facts are of no importance whatsoever. Perhaps you should consider a career in American politics?

"Business Insider" regularly review the capability of the worlds militaries. Below is a link to their review issued in November 2018:

https://www.businessinsider.com/most-powerful-militaries-in-the-world-ranked-2018-11?r=US&IR=T

While BI are not necessarily the definitive authority their reasoning is sound. Below is quick summary beginning with the most powerful:

1 USA
2 Russia
3 China
4 India

Not too surprising so far...

Next is:

5 France (Annual defense budget $40 Billion USD)
6 UK (Annual defense budget $50 Billion USD)

The only other European countries to make the top 25 are:

10 Germany
11 Italy
19 Spain
22 Poland

My family members who serve in the UK military confirm that they are indeed struggling to recruit enough personnel of sufficient standard and certainly they would like to substantially increase their budget.

However for a "Poxy little island" the UK military position is far from shabby.
 
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moggy1968

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Steve, unfortunately you are following the standard remain line that all people that voted leave are thick racists.
It’s bollocks.
I’m married to an immigrant, I voted leave. The largest group of non U.K. nurses in the nhs are phillipino, which, last time I checked, isn’t in the eu. Many of those doctors you talk about will also be from outside the eu. We will
Continue to recruit skilled people and people for jobs which cannot be filled from overseas. That’s controlled immigration, which is what brexit is about, rather than letting a serial rapist into the country and knowing nothing of his previous crimes which is what happens now.
However, none of that is why I voted leave, immigration wasn’t an issue for me. I voted leave because of all the multitudinous problems that there are with the EU.
Your Churchill statement is also bollocks. Quoted widely and inaccurately. Yes Churchill dreamed of a united Europe, what he didn’t dream of was the kind of controlling, authoritarian, undemocratic German and French led bullshit we have now. He didn’t dream of giving up British sovereignty, armed forces, financial policies, legal powers etc etc. The forerunner of the eu wasn’t started by us, it was started by the French under de Gaulle as a way to recapture France’s colonial power and world influence, and a way to try and break the U.K. that’s why we were kept out of it for so long.
 
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Shayne

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Who needs a military when we have the UN and everyone pays their fair share into to that ............... don't they :shifty:
 
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goodoldboy

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all people that voted leave are thick racists.
I certainly don't think that but
letting a serial rapist into the country
How,will being outside the EU stop that? Was the Yorkshire Ripper from Romania? Doesn't the Philippines have rapists?
The whole debate about leaving was based on a series of vague claims , most of them blaming foreigners for the UKs problems - which is racist.The real problems facing the UK are ignored as sections of the public have been whipped into a fearful rage about EU leaders salaries & how Romanians are milking the system.
 

froggy Steve

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Ok, I take back the poxy island bit back. I get very emotional about the UK and it's appalling political situation. In fact it's not just the UK with a problem, but most of the world.
I just hope that the remain side are not correct and the UK can come through this and be a better place than it is at the moment. But I think this is highly unlikely.
Jacobs dad wrote a book called 'blood in the street's ' it's about the elite profiting from times of crisis. I think Jacob and his £150m is pretty safe though, even from the new wealth tax the eu are introducing next year......
 
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Chas

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Your Churchill statement is also bollocks. Quoted widely and inaccurately. Yes Churchill dreamed of a united Europe, what he didn’t dream of was the kind of controlling, authoritarian, undemocratic German and French led bullshit we have now. He didn’t dream of giving up British sovereignty, armed forces, financial policies, legal powers etc etc. The forerunner of the eu wasn’t started by us, it was started by the French under de Gaulle as a way to recapture France’s colonial power and world influence, and a way to try and break the U.K. that’s why we were kept out of it for so long.
What Churchill said in a speech to the House of Commons on 11 May 1953 was

"We are with Europe but not of it; we are linked but not compromised. We are associated but not absorbed.
If Britain must choose between Europe and the open sea, she must always choose the open sea".


Personally I think he was right.
 
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Rob Cowell

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Jacobs dad wrote a book called 'blood in the street's ' it's about the elite profiting from times of crisis. I think Jacob and his £150m is pretty safe though, even from the new wealth tax the eu are introducing next year......
Not a wealth tax. Just anti tax avoidance. Some wealthy organisations already pay their tax without channelling profits through low-tax states. Granted not many, and if your competitors are doing it you're likely at a disadvantage if you don't. Be interesting to see how well it works. Not that it will now benefit us.
 

Rob Cowell

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What Churchill said in a speech to the House of Commons on 11 May 1953 was

"We are with Europe but not of it; we are linked but not compromised. We are associated but not absorbed.
If Britain must choose between Europe and the open sea, she must always choose the open sea".


Personally I think he was right.
This is untrue. You can check for yourself. Here's the Hansard link. https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/people/mr-winston-churchill/1953

When you are searching (for the statement he didn't make) note he gets refered to both as Churchill and the Prime Minister.
 
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Chas

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This is untrue. You can check for yourself. Here's the Hansard link. https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/people/mr-winston-churchill/1953

When you are searching (for the statement he didn't make) note he gets refered to both as Churchill and the Prime Minister.
Yes Rob, That isn't a complete quote from Churchill, it is a stitching together of two quote said at different times,
The first four sentences of the ‘quote’ were not said by Churchill in Parliament in 1953, but written by him 23 years earlier, in February 1930, for America’s Saturday Evening Post. (“We have our own dream and our own task. We are with Europe, but not of it. We are linked but not combined. We are interested and associated but not absorbed.)
the last sentence of the misleading quote that Brexit supporters insist Churchill said to Parliament in 1953? Here it is again:

“If Britain must choose between Europe and the open sea, she must always choose the open sea.”

This was not said by Churchill after the war, but during the war, on the eve of the ‘D Day’ landings in Normandy that would eventually lead to victory over Nazi Germany.
But Churchill became exasperated with de Gaulle’s apparent obstinacy and brinkmanship, and wanted to demonstrate his strong loyalty to US President, Franklin Roosevelt, without whose help Britain - and Europe - would be lost.
Churchill’s temper with de Gaulle flared up and he demanded to know how the British could act separately from the United States. During the raging row, Churchill bellowed to de Gaulle:
“We are going to liberate Europe, but it is because the Americans are with us. So get this quite clear. Every time we have to decide between Europe and the open sea, it is always the open sea we shall choose. Every time I have to choose between you and Roosevelt, I will always choose Roosevelt.” So Churchill did say that but at different times in a different context.
So I stand corrected Rob,

We are with Europe, but not of it. We are linked but not combined. We are interested and associated but not absorbed. If Britain must choose between Europe and the open sea, she must always choose the open sea.”

but they are my sentiments all the same.
 
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Shayne

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It's all good Steve , we can vent our rage so long as we keep talking . I don't care if i'm right or wrong what i say is how i feel , if anger prevents us talking then nobody will ever get around to asking why .

It's a lose lose situation for sure but we got here because the unhappy ones had no voice before the referendum and the result gives a fair indication of how many resent that .

Only when the why is understood can solutions be sought .
 

Rob Cowell

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It's all good Steve , we can vent our rage so long as we keep talking . I don't care if i'm right or wrong what i say is how i feel , if anger prevents us talking then nobody will ever get around to asking why .

It's a lose lose situation for sure but we got here because the unhappy ones had no voice before the referendum and the result gives a fair indication of how many resent that .

Only when the why is understood can solutions be sought .
I agree and hypothesise (no stats here to back it up) that we are where we are because of people disenfranchised with politics. Not because the majority of voters think leavimng the EU, going to WTO and having to renegotiate everything is a good idea.

And I agree we need to understand all sides. Personally I like numbers and citations. Some people don't care for them. I find it really hard to understand people who go with gut feelings. I think I understand people who rely on confirmation bias and I'm quite disdainful of them; probably everyone does this to an extent but we need to consciously push against it. The former I think can be very good at what they do, although I don't think there are many of them. The latter cloud the waters for everyone.

It would therefore be quite reasonable to assume the gut feel folk don't get all the reliance on numbers and statements of record. Perhaps it's a left / right brain thing? I don't know how you balance them though. I do think we need both types, just not necessarily an even number of them. Perhaps if we could do away with the confirmation bias lot we'd all be a lot better off.
 

moggy1968

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I agree and hypothesise (no stats here to back it up) that we are where we are because of people disenfranchised with politics. Not because the majority of voters think leavimng the EU, going to WTO and having to renegotiate everything is a good idea.

And I agree we need to understand all sides. Personally I like numbers and citations. Some people don't care for them. I find it really hard to understand people who go with gut feelings. I think I understand people who rely on confirmation bias and I'm quite disdainful of them; probably everyone does this to an extent but we need to consciously push against it. .
Errr, isn't your opening paragraph a gut feeling not backed up by numbers and citations?
All the people I know that voted leave did so because they want to leave the EU.
 

moggy1968

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I certainly don't think that but

How,will being outside the EU stop that? Was the Yorkshire Ripper from Romania? Doesn't the Philippines have rapists?
The whole debate about leaving was based on a series of vague claims , most of them blaming foreigners for the UKs problems - which is racist.The real problems facing the UK are ignored as sections of the public have been whipped into a fearful rage about EU leaders salaries & how Romanians are milking the system.
I think you've rather missed the point there. People from the Philippines require visas, so checks are made, and thats exactly what I suggested should be happening with anyone coming to the UK. I don't understand the Yorkshire Ripper statement, it's completely irrelevant. are you saying that because we have home grown criminals, it's ok to let foreign ones in as well, with no checks on their criminal past? Of course, I don't think the Yorkshire Ripper had a criminal past, and it's entirely possible that a foreigner coming in that commits a crime wouldn't have either, but lets not fuck about and let serious violent offender with a proven criminal history in FFS!

There is actually no evidence that immigrants commit more crime than the native population, or that immigration increases crime, but lets not dick about by letting people with proven violent criminal pasts into our country.

This is one, but there are many more violent criminals we have allowed to our shores. This particular case is interesting because at this time to come from Poland he did need a visa and a number of fuck ups let him free to rape and murder again. We need a much more robust system and part of that is a properly policed border policy.
https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2004/apr/01/ukcrime.samjones
 
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Chris

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So then, on balance would we say that the public at large are mostly confused and divided or is it crystal clear?

Sorry what was the question?

Hey as an aside, have you noticed in the past few days, many of the points made these hallowed threads have filtered through into pundit-speak? I have. Suddenly there are people talking actual sense.

I heard one person yesterday saying how come 52 / 48 is an overwhelming decision but 63 / 37 isn't?

Also, if there IS a second vote, then questions would have to be thought through carefully and there be clear arguments to clarify the options.

I think someonoe's watching.
 

goodoldboy

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there are many more violent criminals we have allowed to our shores
Ok so lets have some statistics.
I've said before that I'm indifferent to Brexit but what bothers me is that most of what is cited as a reason to leave isn't based on facts , the advantages if leaving have been oversold & the downside almost ignored until now.Even with a no deal scenario I can't see the UK demanding Visas for all European countries & if the single out , say Romania or Poland the response from the rest of the EU will be Visas for anyone crossing the channel.Just think about that for a minute.Even the tightest border controls won't stop anyone determined to get in but the worst no deal case will see serious economic damage to the UK.
 

Rob Cowell

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Errr, isn't your opening paragraph a gut feeling not backed up by numbers and citations?
All the people I know that voted leave did so because they want to leave the EU.
Yes. It's based on reading people's opinions. But I haven't got a representative sample to show. So it is, as I made sure to state, a hypothesis. One I think I share with Shayne. I was very careful not to state it as fact and make withering comments about anyone who might disagree with it.
 
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Rob Cowell

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Of course, I don't think the Yorkshire Ripper had a criminal past, and it's entirely possible that a foreigner coming in that commits a crime wouldn't have either, but lets not fuck about and let serious violent offender with a proven criminal history in FFS!

There is actually no evidence that immigrants commit more crime than the native population, or that immigration increases crime, but lets not dick about by letting people with proven violent criminal pasts into our country.

This is one, but there are many more violent criminals we have allowed to our shores. This particular case is interesting because at this time to come from Poland he did need a visa and a number of fuck ups let him free to rape and murder again. We need a much more robust system and part of that is a properly policed border policy.
https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2004/apr/01/ukcrime.samjones
The counter argument from the moany liberals here would be this has nothing to do with freedom of movement. Everyone coming into the UK needs a passport or an EU ID card. And UK border control can refuse entry if you don't have one, or if you are considered a risk. The high-profile case I can remember here was Geert Wilders, a Dutch citizen being denied entry.

If the fella in your example was known to the authorities the fact he got in is a failure of existing border control. I came back from Dublin into Cardiff a few weeks ago and was very surprised to find no one at all at border control. So it certainly could be done. What I don't see is what this has to do with the EU. It's a problem. It needs addressing. What we disagree on is the most efficient way to address it.
 
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moggy1968

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The counter argument from the moany liberals here would be this has nothing to do with freedom of movement. Everyone coming into the UK needs a passport or an EU ID card. And UK border control can refuse entry if you don't have one, or if you are considered a risk. The high-profile case I can remember here was Geert Wilders, a Dutch citizen being denied entry.

If the fella in your example was known to the authorities the fact he got in is a failure of existing border control. I came back from Dublin into Cardiff a few weeks ago and was very surprised to find no one at all at border control. So it certainly could be done. What I don't see is what this has to do with the EU. It's a problem. It needs addressing. What we disagree on is the most efficient way to address it.
Freedom of movement makes those controls inherently more difficult. As you say (and as I said in my op) that particular case was a monumental fuckup by the powers that be and we need a much more robust system that is implemented correctly.

It is worth remebering amongst the hysteria, that UK citizens enjoy visa free travel to numerous countries outside the EU.
It is unlikely UK citizens visiting EU countries will need visas

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...no-deal-british-citizens-latest-a8631671.html

If they did, then the worst case scenario is an online Permission to travel called an ETIAS, which would work like the US ESTA and would be valid for 3 years. It really isn't that onerous
 
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