The people have spoken

[moggy1968]

Answering the question in the new vote will be easy. It will be :-

"Would you rather stay in the EU or have your Landcruiser crushed?"

The biggest risk to your landcruiser is the EUs increasingly draconian and misplaced measures against the internal combustion engine which is largely to support the car industry, notably the German car industry. Just look at what is happening in German cities.

 

[MarkW]

You're not addressing the question posed by your earlier posts about border controls to stop the criminals getting in and my subsequent question of how leaving the EU will affect that when border controls are up to the UK to decide on.

Freedom of movement and controls to stop criminal entering the UK are 2 different side to the immigration coin

 

[Rob Cowell]

Freedom of movement makes those controls inherently more difficult. As you say (and as I said in my op) that particular case was a monumental fuckup by the powers that be and we need a much more robust system that is implemented correctly.

It is worth remebering amongst the hysteria, that UK citizens enjoy visa free travel to numerous countries outside the EU.
It is unlikely UK citizens visiting EU countries will need visas

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...no-deal-british-citizens-latest-a8631671.html

If they did, then the worst case scenario is an online Permission to travel called an ETIAS, which would work like the US ESTA and would be valid for 3 years. It really isn't that onerous

I work a bit in the US and the ESTA is easy if you're a tourist or are visiting your employer with a letter to show you are not working, just learning / discussing. Work visas are a lot more effort. And the 2 hour+ queues at arrivals are tough; appreciate that depends on where you fly to. US Homeland Security are geared up for the numbers too. The home office definitely isn't, although, hey, some jobs going there soon.

It'll be interesting to see how those who have retired in the EU will get on. Or those who go for the winter. They will be outside of short-stay tourism and so not covered by ETIAS.

But all of this is pretty minor (unless you've retired to the EU, or work there with a relatively low paid job), I agree. Much less minor will be all the expense and civil service expansion we need to process work visas. The danger is that will delay people taking up work positions and impacting British companies. A very efficient civil service could mitigate a lot of that. I have my views on how likely that will be. It also cuts off lots of opportunities for Britons to work in the EU. Yes if a company really wants you they'll sponsor you, but right now if I decide to work in Europe I have the same chance as anyone else, rather than being looked on as someone with a load of red-tape around me. And right now I can invite my wife and kids to stay with me. Assuming the EU implement recipricol arrangements for what we are proposing that won't happen. I can work abroad and speak to the kids on Skype every night. Not quite so appealing.

And all of this convenienty ignores the Irish border.

I realise this is all a balance. Some people will view this as a reasonable impact. My view is I don't seem enough benefit to justify the downsides.

 

[Rob Cowell]

I wonder if that's why they just scrapped the Welsh border ?
OOPS sorry i just googled it and apparently it was just a toll bridge

anyway we are actually making progress here , personally i very much appreciate your attempt at empathy Rob , its too late in the day now but if more remainers had bothered to make such an effort instead of trying to ram bullshit doomsday facts and figures down peoples throat , the quite possibly the referendum outcome might have been different .

With empathy in mind try to imagine everything Juncker represents to any decent person of moral worth .

That might just help .

I don't care for Juncker. I just don't see leaving the EU helps the UK influence that. I know he is up for reelection next year, assuming he wants to stand, and I know now the UK will have no influence on who is president for the next 5 years.

I realise there are people who think there are two entities, the EU and the UK. I can only point to the documented workings of the EU, how the parliament, commission and the council work. I know the UK only supports 90% of the motions passed. And sometimes positions the UK wants to take are out-voted by other members. What I have never seen is the suggestion that the EU is a body that wants to work against the UK. Or that the EU is controlled by Germany. Or France. Or any one country. Germany has the most MEPs because they have the largest population. But the president of the comission is from Luxembourg and the president of the council is from Poland. I'd like to empathise more, but I just don't get it.

 

[moggy1968]

I work a bit in the US and the ESTA is easy if you're a tourist or are visiting your employer with a letter to show you are not working, just learning / discussing. Work visas are a lot more effort. And the 2 hour+ queues at arrivals are tough; appreciate that depends on where you fly to. US Homeland Security are geared up for the numbers too. The home office definitely isn't, although, hey, some jobs going there soon.

It'll be interesting to see how those who have retired in the EU will get on. Or those who go for the winter. They will be outside of short-stay tourism and so not covered by ETIAS.

But all of this is pretty minor (unless you've retired to the EU, or work there with a relatively low paid job), I agree. Much less minor will be all the expense and civil service expansion we need to process work visas. The danger is that will delay people taking up work positions and impacting British companies. A very efficient civil service could mitigate a lot of that. I have my views on how likely that will be. It also cuts off lots of opportunities for Britons to work in the EU. Yes if a company really wants you they'll sponsor you, but right now if I decide to work in Europe I have the same chance as anyone else, rather than being looked on as someone with a load of red-tape around me. And right now I can invite my wife and kids to stay with me. Assuming the EU implement recipricol arrangements for what we are proposing that won't happen. I can work abroad and speak to the kids on Skype every night. Not quite so appealing.

And all of this convenienty ignores the Irish border.

I realise this is all a balance. Some people will view this as a reasonable impact. My view is I don't seem enough benefit to justify the downsides.

I know it's almost impossible to comprehend, but people do work and travel from the UK to outside the EU and vice versa. I know whenever I travel, which is a lot because of work, the queue at passport control for EU is often longer than the queue for non EU!

 

[Rob Cowell]

I know it's almost impossible to comprehend, but people do work and travel from the UK to outside the EU and vice versa. I know whenever I travel, which is a lot because of work, the queue at passport control for EU is often longer than the queue for non EU!

I appreciate that it is also almost impossible to comprehend that I said for individuals the inconvenience is minor.

The major points were impact on UK companies in recruiting staff, impact on UK citizens wanting to take advantage of work opportunities in the EU where assuming reciprocity it will be hard to take your family or take a low paid job, and very significantly, the Irish border.

I realise there will be people who see these as worthy casualties for more immigration control.

 

[Shayne]

the bitterness among people on both the Republican and Unionist sides is not gone.

Its sectarian though Bob and that animosity will take generations to filter out even if due the peace process 50% of police officers have to come from a Catholic background , any nationalistic slant on it "united Ireland" has been rendered void and pointless because the Republic surrendered itself to Europe long ago . I know a few people who served time in the Maze and i feel very confident in saying they won't risk life and liberty just so they can surrender some more of Ireland to someone else .

I'd like to empathise more, but I just don't get it.

What we see is indirect Rob , dieselgate for example , what i see is a calculated and coordinated effort to boost German car sales while hindering the competition with unachievable save the planet bullshit rules . Japan got very rich by taking on the American auto industry and winning , though they did it honestly .

An what i ask is the fallout from that blatant disregard for everything the EU claims to stand for , just a little less severe than i suffer when i steal a chicken leg off her Sunday roast before dinner is served .

Juncker was found to be in contempt of , well everything over Selmayr's promotion but guess what .............

Hey look we can buy light bulbs is China for half a Deutschmark each so buy Druncker a bottle of wine have him change the law so everyone has to buy them off us , we can send an EU rummer stamp to China and still make millions . Who cares if it wipes out factories and jobs in conquered territories , they can come to us and we will lend them money making them all the more obedient .

When does it stop , when Germany has full control of all of Europe's military perhaps

 

[Rob Cowell]

• But, as you seem intent on wanting statistics, I've taken some snippets from references to proper bona fide research on Wiki to spoon feed you.
  According to the prison population statistics, foreigners represent 13% of the UK population. Foreigners represent 13% of the prison population,

  
  Your spoon has got a hole in it. Or it's an old spoon. Or a lot of foreign nationals have been released since April.
  
  • Foreign nationals made up 11% of the prison population
  
  UK Prison Population Statistics - Parliament.ukresearchbriefings.files.parliament.uk/documents/SN04334/SN04334.pdf
  
  This compares with 12.7% of the population of the UK being foreign born, as per the 2011 census. I'm sure some of those subsequently gained British nationality.
  
  https://migrationobservatory.ox.ac.uk/resources/briefings/migration-great-britain-census-factsheet/
  
  What we don't know the % of EU nationals in prison, which is the only thing and end to freedom of movement could affect if our border control suddenly get much better at guessing who might be a wong'un. But even then I think it's down to whether you consider the UK as part of the EU or separate. I don't see it as being any different to building a wall between England and Wales because there are English born people in Cardiff prison. I mean I'm not saying all English people are criminals but surely it's better to check their background before letting them over (one of) the Severn Bridge(s).
  
  
  

 

[moggy1968]

• 
  
  Your spoon has got a hole in it. Or it's an old spoon. Or a lot of foreign nationals have been released since April.
  • Foreign nationals made up 11% of the prison population
  
  UK Prison Population Statistics - Parliament.ukresearchbriefings.files.parliament.uk/documents/SN04334/SN04334.pdf
  
  This compares with 12.7% of the population of the UK being foreign born, as per the 2011 census. I'm sure some of those subsequently gained British nationality.
  
  https://migrationobservatory.ox.ac.uk/resources/briefings/migration-great-britain-census-factsheet/
  
  What we don't know the % of EU nationals in prison, which is the only thing and end to freedom of movement could affect if our border control suddenly get much better at guessing who might be a wong'un. But even then I think it's down to whether you consider the UK as part of the EU or separate. I don't see it as being any different to building a wall between England and Wales because there are English born people in Cardiff prison. I mean I'm not saying all English people are criminals but surely it's better to check their background before letting them over (one of) the Severn Bridge(s).

Semantics. The fact remains that there is no evidential link between immigration and crime. I don’t really know what your trying to say as you appear to be attempting to rubbish my post with a post that basically says the same thing.
You obviously gave that report the same attention as people’s posts as it does break down what percentage of the prison population are EU nationals.
You keep on bleating on about something which isn’t even relevant what I posted, which was to do with letting known convicted criminals into the U.K. in true remain style, ignore the actual point and just rant on about something entirely different. Have you considered a career in politics!!
You’ve yet to answer the question. Are we to presume then you have absolutely no problem with violent offenders being allowed into the U.K.?
Your welsh example is so ridiculous I won’t even bother to respond to it.

 

[Bob]

Shayne, I never mentioned the idea of United Ireland as that's not on the table, nor would it be any kind of solution. As for the fact that's it's sectarian hatred, that's the most bitter kind...

Should any attempt be made to re introduce a hard border, it will cause violent protest at best

 

[moggy1968]

And this gentlemen is why it’s really better not to have topics like this on forums like this.
It serves no useful purpose and just causes antagonism and people to get pissed off.
It’s fruitelss pointless self flagellation.
You might just as well piss in your own breakfast cereal.

 

[MarkW]

You've yet to answer how you thinking leaving the EU will stop violent offenders entering the country when border controls are down to the UK to decide?

Why is it so difficult to provide a fact based reason for leaving the EU if that's the way you voted?

 

[moggy1968]

Shayne, I never mentioned the idea of United Ireland as that's not on the table, nor would it be any kind of solution. As for the fact that's it's sectarian hatred, that's the most bitter kind...

Should any attempt be made to re introduce a hard border, it will cause violent protest at best

I don’t think much of the sectarian activity really related to religion or nationalism. It was about power, where people who otherwise were complete non entities managed to create power and influence through thuggery and fear, and about criminality. The various sectarian bodies supported various criminal activities.

 

[Rob Cowell]

What we see is indirect Rob , dieselgate for example , what i see is a calculated and coordinated effort to boost German car sales while hindering the competition with unachievable save the planet bullshit rules

I know the Commission were implicated in as much as they were letting the motor manufacturers drive testing regulations and they were slow in chasing known discrepancies. But also Fiat, Renault, Ford, Opel and Mercedes were implicated. No problem seeing a failure in EU governance I just don't see the favouring of German manufacturers over others. Maybe favouring of EU manufacturers over non-EU, although to me it comes across to me more as negligence in governance than favouritism. Perhaps I'm showing my own favouritism, I just can't find anything suggesting the bias was towards the German manufacturers. Any more than I can see anything showing the German car manufacturers will force the EU to give us a good trade deal.

Juncker was found to be in contempt of , well everything over Selmayr's promotion but guess what .............

Agree. As I say I don't rate him and his actions with Selmayr have damaged the presidency. MEPs can table a no confidence motion against the commission president, so there is a way to remove him, despite what seems to be popular opinion. It'll be interesting to see how it affects his re-election chances. I'm not sure how many people know his term is almost up. It's not something I can recall being highlighted anywhere obvious. I definitely see how he gets people's backs up and how they think poorly of the EU because of him.

Hey look we can buy light bulbs is China for half a Deutschmark each so buy Druncker a bottle of wine have him change the law so everyone has to buy them off us , we can send an EU rummer stamp to China and still make millions . Who cares if it wipes out factories and jobs in conquered territories ,

So parking the argument about how good an idea the bulb regulation is, 5 UK MEPs voted for it, and 1 against. The overall vote was 44 to 14, so the UK was more in favour of this than the EU in general. The suggestion would be this would have passed comfortably in the commons anyway. So it's not something that has been foisted upon us.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wo...for-light-bulb-ban-is-a-former-communist.html

 

[moggy1968]

You've yet to answer how you thinking leaving the EU will stop violent offenders entering the country when border controls are down to the UK to decide?

Why is it so difficult to provide a fact based reason for leaving the EU if that's the way you voted?

Thats because you didn't ask that question. I've already stated above I am not going to go into the reasons I voted leave and the reason for that, read the fucking post.
TBH Mark, I've had enough of your shit, you're just trolling.

 

[MarkW]

You get on your high horse time and time again, complaining that people don't read your posts then you do exactly the same to other people.

You kept posting about border controls and criminal being let in but when asked to can't explain how leaving the EU would fix that without throwing your toys out of the pram

 

[Rob Cowell]

Semantics. The fact remains that there is no evidential link between immigration and crime. I don’t really know what your trying to say as you appear to be attempting to rubbish my post with a post that basically says the same thing.
You obviously gave that report the same attention as people’s posts as it does break down what percentage of the prison population are EU nationals.
You keep on bleating on about something which isn’t even relevant what I posted, which was to do with letting known convicted criminals into the U.K. in true remain style, ignore the actual point and just rant on about something entirely different. Have you considered a career in politics!!
You’ve yet to answer the question. Are we to presume then you have absolutely no problem with violent offenders being allowed into the U.K.?
Your welsh example is so ridiculous I won’t even bother to respond to it.

Quoting an incorrect number is not semantics. You read the wrong paragraph.

I am not trying to rubbish your post. I only picked up your misreading because you seem unable to respond politely to any post on here. You want me to answer a question and yet happily tell others their questions to you are irrelevant or not worthy of your time. It's an interesting way to discuss an important subject among a group of generally very friendly, helpful people.

I have every problem with violent offenders. But I view the EU as the place I live. Whether the violent offender is Polish, Portuguese or Pomponian I don't want them near me. But I don't see a value in trying to construct a barrier to movement within the EU anymore than I see a point to constructing a barrier in the UK. It's a different Weltanschauung to yours and explains the difference in our views on this particular subject.

 

[moggy1968]

Quoting an incorrect number is not semantics. You read the wrong paragraph.

I am not trying to rubbish your post. I only picked up your misreading because you seem unable to respond politely to any post on here. You want me to answer a question and yet happily tell others their questions to you are irrelevant or not worthy of your time. It's an interesting way to discuss an important subject among a group of generally very friendly, helpful people.

I have every problem with violent offenders. But I view the EU as the place I live. Whether the violent offender is Polish, Portuguese or Pomponian I don't want them near me. But I don't see a value in trying to construct a barrier to movement within the EU anymore than I see a point to constructing a barrier in the UK. It's a different Weltanschauung to yours and explains the difference in our views on this particular subject.

I did respond politely, but here’s the thing, when you repeatedly anatagonise someone and poke them with the stick, eventually you will piss them off and then they may not be so polite. If you don’t like it, don’t be such a fucking pain in the arse.

I only asked you to answer a question when you questioned me and demanded statistics. There was no miss reading on my behalf, I leave that to you.

You it would appear are the one incapable of discussing an important subject sensibly. You ignore or misread what people say and misquote them and attribute things to them they haven’t said to try and further your own bullshit.

It’s not a wrong number, it’s just a different set of data, it’s semantics and your doing it just to try and be a smart arse but actually looking pretty stupid doing it.

Your not being helpful or friendly, you’re being deliberately obtuse, antagonistic and confrontational and have been from the off.

I don’t know what your problem is but you have achieved you aim, congratulations.

I explained above why this type of subject is probably not helpful to discuss on a forum like this, which is why I have tried avoiding getting into the detail of it, it would be a futile exercise, as I posted above, and just creates antagonism and ill feeling, as you have achieved by your ridiculous badgering away in pointless nit picking and repetition and digging where it would be better not to dig.

You’ve achieved what you apparently set out to achieve so how about now you just can it.

Meanwhile I’ve got better things to do than put up with some fucking wind up merchant on the internet.

 

[Shayne]

more as negligence in governance than favouritism

OK i'm showing my prejudiced there i should have said EU cars but because i think of French cars as made of cheese and i lost track long ago of who actually owns which manufacturer brand name i think of them all as German . I have nothing against Germany itself , it could be France or Spain or anywhere who wrote the rules because they made the most money , it just so happens that Germany seems to hold that title .

I'm not sure how many people know his term is almost up

I think everyone knows but nobody cares because we have absolutely no influence on whether he stays or goes .

bulb regulation

Doesn't surprise me at all because we have nobody working in the interest of UK people just tow the line brainwashed flower power muppets who in their forward thinking liberalism and diversity ideals dress their kids pinks for boys and blue for girls - for fear they may grow up normal without a gentle nudge towards a gender identity crisis .

 

[frank rabbets]

Parliament today are debating the criteria on immigration. This shows the whole farce of the process and how impossible Brexit is. This should have been done before the referendum not after.