The people have spoken

[goodoldboy]

These are lucky kids doing well in todays Britain and they know it

Luckily they've got you to help out mate.This sort of story is all too common & enrages me.I was born in a house without a bathroom or indoor toilet & rain poured in through the roof in the back bedroom - my dad had to change the bucket if it was heavy.We then moved into a council house that had a bathroom , widows that shut properly & a roof that didn't leak.The rent was half of the old place.
No one is forced to be a landlord & the question still remains , why , in such a wealthy country is such a basic need as decent housing out of reach of ordinary working people?

 

[goodoldboy]

That bill did get through in the end though.
https://services.parliament.uk/Bills/2017-19/homesfitnessforhumanhabitation/stages.html

No Rob I didn't know that the bill had passed in the end but the fact that any MP. Voted against speaks volumes for the shitty system we have

 

[Shayne]

The eu is the same system on steriods and twice as removed from any consequences ?

 

[goodoldboy]

The eu is the same system on steriods and twice as removed from any consequences ?

Yep same system more or less but Brexit will hand even more power to the worst elements of the right with regards to consumer protection & basic rights.Rees mogg has said that Indian H&S would do fine for the UK.I'm trying hard to see how Brexit will make any positive difference to issues like housing.

 

[Rob Cowell]

No Rob I didn't know that the bill had passed in the end but the fact that any MP. Voted against speaks volumes for the shitty system we have

Is it a shitty system or just a reflection of society? It's a representational democracy, if you vote Conservative you support the idea that the country is best served by a relatively free economic model, with "aspirational" tax breaks, and minimal regulation. There are lots of people with a genuine belief that that is beneficial for the country. I disagree with them, but what is a better system to represent the people? Hopefully we've ruled out trying to copy the X-Factor again.

 

[Shayne]

Quitting the eu is not in itself going to fix anything .

But for comparison to your worry that MP's block legislation (to improve housing) for their own benefit . Macron just signed a deal that will bankrupt every "working" farmer in France . We all know French Agriculture gets more than its fair share of subsidy . Where do them bankrupt farms and the subsidy go when the farmers themselves are out . Into the hands of stinking rich "freinds" who will employ a single person at minimum wage (reclaiming most of that back from him in rent) to tend 2 hens then sit back and reap the rewards of money for nothing .

Workers rights and all that is bullshit , if you don't have the money to live without an income while you stand up for righteousness and justice then you have only two options , bite your lip and do as your told if you want to pay your rent or open your mouth lose your job and don't pay your rent .

Brexit is just a start , let the kids vote for world peace and flower power and unemployment while the rest of us vote on stuff that matters .

 

[GeekOKent]

It looks like no clear answer on eea status, or is there ?

 

[Rob Cowell]

Macron just signed a deal that will bankrupt every "working" farmer in France. Where do them bankrupt farms and the subsidy go when the farmers themselves are out . Into the hands of stinking rich "freinds" who will employ a single person at minimum wage (reclaiming most of that back from him in rent) to tend 2 hens then sit back and reap the rewards of money for nothing .

What policy is that? Not seen anything in the farming press, but they're generally a week or two behind if you don't subscribe for an online service. Look forward to the convoy of vehicles bearing animal-by-product gifts trundling down the Champs Elysees soon.

 

[Rob Cowell]

It looks like no clear answer on eea status, or is there ?

EEA includes freedom of movement which is a "red line" isn't it?

 

[Shayne]

Can't say i much care whats happening in France Rob but that farmers are trashing civic offices and the like over a new "gobalization" deal which allows the eu to be flooded with cheaper meat than anyone within the eu can compete with says it all really .

But hey it creates jobs on the other side of the planet and helps the mega rich profit more while making meat here cheaper for those who can no longer afford to buy it anyway coz they lost their jobs as a negligable consequence . What could possibly go wrong .

 

[Rob Cowell]

Can't say i much care whats happening in France Rob but that farmers are trashing civic offices and the like over a new "gobalization" deal which allows the eu to be flooded with cheaper meat than anyone within the eu can compete with says it all really .

OK. I'm guessing you are referring to the recent beef quota deal with the US, that French farmers certainly opposed. The US were threatening higher tariffs on EU products if this didn't go through.

At least once we get out of the EU we can reduce our trade with the US to allow a more protectionist agricultural policy.

 

[Shayne]

I was giving an example of how the system always works in favour of the few at cost to the many Rob but i appreciate you bringing things back on track by pointing out so very clearly how the the eu protectionist project has failed now America has a president they can't buy .

bollox waffle and bluster does not hide the fact that as a single federal state the eu is weak on every front and internally robbing peter to pay paul while siphoning off a little from each transaction to the select few could never end well .

 

[Rob Cowell]

I was giving an example of how the system always works in favour of the few at cost to the many

The many farmers at the expense of the few manufacturing workers? It's precisely the opposite. I want livestock prices to be high but I have to be realistic about how the general economy works. If manufacturing workers lose their jobs because exports of their goods are hit my home market shrinks and prices for my produce falls.

By all means call out the EU, as you have done accurately sometimes. I just don't think this is the example that shows what you claim it shows.

 

[Shayne]

The many = eu farmers who are no longer neccesary and while i don't know i would assume whatever processing/manufacturing involved will wherever possible be done where its cheaper to do so not in France for sure .

But hey its better for the project because it benefits who exactly ?

 

[flint]

The promise of continued subsidies for farmers is a bit confusing as this will be against WTO rules. There are a lot of worried beef and sheep producers locally, not the big boys but family farms (and associated support trades) that will face ruin without some sort of support.
I know that one of your arguments against the EU is to do with fishing. How do you think this will change after leaving ? The present system of quota allocation is down to individual countries governments to control, something that they have failed to do in the UK in the past, allowing a small number of operators (many foreign owned) to hold large amounts of quota. Just interested.

 

[Shayne]

In truth it doesn't much matter to me because what i fish is processed within the UK then chucked on a slow boat to China or thereabouts which played a large roll in my decision to buy a single purpose boat and target a species i knew nothing about .

Its in the interest of local fisherman to nurse their livelihood traditionally sons take over from fathers generation after generation so you take the cream and move on allowing it to replenish for next year . But whats the point in leaving it when a French boat (who is probably tracking your coarse) will come in and thrash it to death just as soon as you move away taking 60% of the British quota then have ensured a profitable year heading off home to enjoy the rest of the year fishing their own quota . I get a text most days telling me the catch limitation for something has been amended and i should go online and read several pages of my new legal obligations .

Whats really laughable is the claim that its science based , scientists aren't fishermen and nothing in fishing is static , they may as well bung me a million quid to find a cure for cancer in my coal shed .

Most of the fish caught in Britain is exported but of course they won't want it any more after Brexit , ha yeah right so i guess France will just double its own quota maybe ?

I pay little attention because i really don't care what the mighty penpushers do but i believe the mechisms are already in place that will allow me to land fish in europe (ROI) should i choose to even after brexit , i should have read the letter before i binned it i guess .

Was talking to a mate of mine last month , after a lifetime of fishing culminating in his swan song boat worth nearly a million he hasn't been to sea this year because his quota allowance won't cover his fuel bill to go looking for the fish .

Our fishing industry is all but dead because of rules and it has nothing whatsoever to do with fish stocks .

..................................................................................................................................................................................
Quote

With 756 >12m vessels as of the 1st January 2014, at present, there are 657 (46%) fewer boats in the UK fleet today than at the start of the millennium, when there were 1,413 vessels.

From here - http://ffl.org.uk/the-state-of-britains-fishing-fleet-detailed-report-from-2014/

 

[flint]

Thanks for that. Interesting reading and sad for those losing their livelihoods. I don't know much about the business, but after reading this: https://lifeplatform.eu/wp-content/uploads/2017/12/Fishy-Business-in-the-EU.pdf , and this: https://unearthed.greenpeace.org/20...ota-barons-squeeze-out-small-scale-fishermen/ it seems that it is the unfair distribution of quotas and the lack of proper policing by the UK government that is causing many of the problems in the industry, the big boys doing nicely at the cost of the smaller ones.

 

[Shayne]

The corruption is blatantly obvious you can spit it in their face and they just smile at you because they know the only person you can appeal to is them . I'm not in the funny handshake gang so i'm on the wrong side of laws that only apply to those that aren't in the clique . If en masse we all kick up a fuss they might juggle some paper around but nothing changes still the rich man will fish the allocation of the 3 boats he owns with one boat illegally in plain view of the authorities and everyone else as he has done for 30 years or more safe in the knowledge they dont want to catch him , whereas i was recently threatened under caution in a police like taped interview with a court and a fishing ban because my logsheet telling them what i caught and when (information they have open access to any time) was two weeks late . I wanted to ignore them and force the matter to court because i have in my possesion a duplicate letter sent the same day to one of the big guys who owns maybe 15 boats which reads along the lines of hiya darling your logsheets are 8 months late for such and such a boats so if you would please be kind enough to pop the in the post when its convenient we would be very grateful . Alas discretion is the better part of valour and why should my crew lose their jobs and me a years income for nothing more than an unapologetic "case dismissed"

Rules , save the planet bullshit is the vehicle that drives this corruption , scrap all existing rules and govern what gear can be used instead , the same man in a 12m 150hp boat or a 15m 500hp boat will catch more in the boat thats allowed to drag the most dredgers so rules governing horsepower and length are nothing but a hindrance to the industry , they moved the entrance fee from circa 100 thousand for a 50 year old wooden boat that still has a chance at making it pay to circa 350 thousand for a 20+ year old steel boat that fits the rules .

Gear design is pretty static so a universal UK wide your nets must not exceed this length , this many dredgers aside , no boat will fish more than so many pots but catch what you like when you like and watch the industry grow year on year smashing catch records for fish scientists claim aren't even there . The market governs what we bring in , nobody goes out there to fill the boat with worthless small/young fish because its value wont even cover the fuel bill . Nobody wants to work for nothing but its a common occurence in the fishing industry .

Bare in mind though that fisherman would not be happy to see size limits on fish that can survive being caught and returned to the sea (shellfish mostly) removed , conservation means more to him than it does to any member of greenpeace .

 

[Rob Cowell]

The promise of continued subsidies for farmers is a bit confusing as this will be against WTO rules.

Unfortunately it's way more complicated than that. The EU is a WTO member, remember.

If you suffer from insomnia pull up the WTO Agreement on Agriculture papers. There are different types of payments you can make under WTO rules. Broadly (plenty of complex caveats), environmental schemes are OK, and if we can derive anything from the incoherent ramblings of the government it is that this is likely to be the focus point of future payments. And there are other production based payments allowed, but other WTO members have to agree to the quota you have to do that, and of course the UK has no quota at present so it will be something to be negotiated.

 

[GeekOKent]

EEA includes freedom of movement which is a "red line" isn't it?

I am not sure, is it ? Can't tell what the present situation is but looked like there were going to be lots of concession's w.r.t free movement, deal or no deal.

The 'if already in the UK by end of March' concession seems to have been withdrawn though, did they just move the date forward?