The people have spoken

[chadr]

 

[chapel gate]

ive been self employed since i was 19. i have a extremely small pot to piss in. i have a mortgage and a four year old. my mrs is also a self employed sole trader, who has hardly been able to work this year due to covid.

i would still vote the same way again.

 

[goodoldboy]

The current UK position is "we'll sign a deal but we want the right to break any of the conditions , at any point in the future without consequence " and Shayne thinks the European position is arrogant !

 

[goodoldboy]

ive been self employed since i was 19. i have a extremely small pot to piss in. i have a mortgage and a four year old. my mrs is also a self employed sole trader, who has hardly been able to work this year due to covid.

being self employed , to me , is about being autonomous , not being at the beck and call of a boss or company thats doing well because of my hard work.Instead i'm at the beck and call of customers .For those at the top who favor Brexit destroying the productive part of the UK economy will have little or no impact on their wealth as they gain their riches from financial markets , trading and property.To them a colapse in property values is a great opportunity to buy up assests at cents on the dollar as well as taking advantage of any of our money doled out to "save "the economy"
They too would like to see more self employed folks in the UK but to them that means delivering parcels for online retailers for less than minimum wage after you've paid off your van on tick & all the other expenses.It means your Mrs doing casual work , waiting for a call to do 2 or 3 hours paying her own social security.
Large sections of the working class have been impoverished in the UK over the last 40 years but politics has served up plenty of scapegoats so that even the most skint person has someone to look down on and fear.Poverty is seen as shameful and largely self inflicted as wages have shrunk or stagnated and rents/house prices have skyrocketed .Europe is just the latest bogeyman and the jingoistic nonsense about "our way of life" is meant to paper over the cracks and distract folks from what's really going on.I'm not sure who's next to be blamed for all ills but now is the time for the lower middle classes to get shafted and many will face a dramatic and permanent cut in living standards and a grim outlook for their children.Just as before went the miners ,steelworkers , fishermen and all the other skilled jobs that meant a decent standard of living was at least a possibility.Coupled with this is an increasingly authoritarian government who have openly attacked the rule of law , largely failed to deal with the pandemic but have shamelessly doled out billions in opaque contracts to their mates. A grim outlook .

 

[chadr]

Engineer a situation of maximum chaos and disruption, so it's a crisis. This justifies, necessitates ramming through all encompassing changes to regulations and standards without the normal oversight and debate, as it's a matter of survival.

To the detriment of the many and the further enrichment of the few...straight out of Klein's Shock Doctrine. In fact it's more or less exactly how the pandemic and concomitant jobs and contracts for the boys/girls, went down and they've got away with that, despite 60,000 dead and rising including many who shouldn't be... so confidence must be pretty high.

Straight from another forum, as I couldn't have said it better - Also "The Shock Doctrine" by Naomi Klein is worth a read , things are playing out exactly as outlined.

The Shock Doctrine: The Rise of Disaster Capitalism

 

[Shayne]

I appreciate that Iwan because we are very much in the same position but i feel its now or never if our kids or their kids are to have any hope at all of being anything other than expendable undervalued underpaid slaves to a system they cannot escape .

My industry has for the most part been bought up and trying to get into it now without the backing of a multimillionaire is wishful thinking , yours will go the same way when some pillock with a pen decides only timber frame homes built in a multimillion pound factory are safe , you will work for them or stack shelves in a supermarket so your freedom is preserved .

Cleaning you might think of as a low skilled job that allows for flexibility and freedom of choice but the reality is for most to achieve a steady basic income they must work for global corporations who have no idea who they are because contracts demand a surety of upwards of £100,000 .

The world is changing and there ain't no stopping it but when an accountable democratic gov wants to stay in power it is forced to address the concerns of those who will vote against them , thats why democracy works .

Lest we forget what brought us here a Prime Minister , the single most powerful person in the United Kingdom wanted to address some citizen concerns and so he went to see his BOSS only to be met with contempt and return humiliated .

A deal is of mutual interest and a reciprocal beneficial arrangement could be worked out that hinders neither side but instead promotes only fair competition . The fly in the ointment is the powers that be can see Britain will flourish unless held in contempt , the protracted consequence of a country leaving to prosper could be devastating for the EU empire .

 

[Lorin]

There’s nothing good to come out of brexit, absolutely nothing, period. If anyone can name even one thing, one tangible benefit for yourself, your children, whether now or in the future, I’m all ears...... Not opinion, not supposition, nor some woolly bulls**t idea, but a hard irrefutable fact, let’s hear it.

 

[David]

There’s nothing good to come out of brexit, absolutely nothing, period. If anyone can name even one thing, one tangible benefit for yourself, your children, whether now or in the future, I’m all ears...... Not opinion, not supposition, nor some woolly bulls**t idea, but a hard irrefutable fact, let’s hear it.

100% agree nothing with Brexit will make my life any better just the opposite

 

[goodoldboy]

i feel its now or never if our kids or their kids are to have any hope at all of being anything other than expendable undervalued underpaid slaves to a system they cannot escape .

so post brexit will see a dramatic fall in rents and house prices , an end to zero hours contractas and a minimum wage that people can live on ?

when an accountable democratic gov wants to stay in power it is forced to address the concerns of those who will vote against them , thats why democracy works .

The tories got 43% of the vote which allows them to do as they wish for 5 years .Do they care if they get booted out ? what we have is an illusion of democracy.
The idea of the European project as some sinister all powerful form of totalitarian government is bordering on a conspiracy theory.I've asked you Shayne more than once what the difference is between being ruled from brussels or Westminster and you can't seem to be able to .All i hear from pro brexit folks is some vague illusion to sovereignty whatever that means .
The origins of brexit lie in an internal battle in the tory party , a bunch of colonel blimps nostalgic for the days of empire , baffled and resentful that there was no return to former glory after the 2nd world war.

 

[Geoff 28]

As Starcruiser has already said, when we joined it was the common market, a great idea but badly managed (remember the butter mountains, grain mountains, wine lakes, etc etc)
That has morphed into the European state we see now which is clearly intent on even closer integration and the more I see of their behaviour since the referendum the less I like it, there is definitely an element of control freakery involved which has only been confirmed by other countries who have negotiated for years to secure a deal and are all of the opinion that the EU is impossible to deal with!
The UK has always been the good boy of Europe, sticking to the rules while other members serve their own interest first and if as it now seems we may leave without a deal it does at least give us a chance to make rules which suit us best whilst still doing the right thing.
I certainly don’t agree with the argument that we will suffer from losing our grants and funding from the EU, as the third largest member we always contribute more than we receive. It just needs Whitehall to get it’s act together and get our own grants allocated quickly and fairly once our EU contributions end ( I won’t hold my breath on that one)
I hope I’m proved wrong but I’d be surprised if we’re not in for a bumpy ride after the end of the transition period, how long for nobody knows for certain but as I see it Brussels has grown into this immense juggernaut of gravy train and at least the UK gravy train is a hell of a lot smaller!

 

[Chas]

As Starcruiser has already said, when we joined it was the common market, a great idea but badly managed (remember the butter mountains, grain mountains, wine lakes, etc etc)
That has morphed into the European state we see now which is clearly intent on even closer integration and the more I see of their behaviour since the referendum the less I like it, there is definitely an element of control freakery involved which has only been confirmed by other countries who have negotiated for years to secure a deal and are all of the opinion that the EU is impossible to deal with!
The UK has always been the good boy of Europe, sticking to the rules while other members serve their own interest first and if as it now seems we may leave without a deal it does at least give us a chance to make rules which suit us best whilst still doing the right thing.
I certainly don’t agree with the argument that we will suffer from losing our grants and funding from the EU, as the third largest member we always contribute more than we receive. It just needs Whitehall to get it’s act together and get our own grants allocated quickly and fairly once our EU contributions end ( I won’t hold my breath on that one)
I hope I’m proved wrong but I’d be surprised if we’re not in for a bumpy ride after the end of the transition period, how long for nobody knows for certain but as I see it Brussels has grown into this immense juggernaut of gravy train and at least the UK gravy train is a hell of a lot smaller!

Explains exactly why I voted leave.

 

[goodoldboy]

we may leave without a deal it does at least give us a chance to make rules which suit us best whilst still doing the right thing.

Any deal involves compromise and consequences for not sticking to the rules. The idea that the UK can simply pick and choose what it wants with no downside is crazy. The loss of subsidies from the EU is a small concern compared with the friction that will be involved in a no deal scenario -did someone say less red tape ?
For years the UK played the part of the golf club member who did nothing but sit at the bar complaining and criticising always ready to cause trouble but never taking a proactive role in running things. After the referendum the government had a chance to negociate an orderly exit before pulling the trigger with a decision to leave but instead chose to double down on the rhetoric , appealing to the most reactionary sector of their support.

 

[chadr]

A deal is of mutual interest and a reciprocal beneficial arrangement could be worked out that hinders neither side but instead promotes only fair competition . The fly in the ointment is the powers that be can see Britain will flourish unless held in contempt , the protracted consequence of a country leaving to prosper could be devastating for the EU empire .

The EU's position is just the EU's position - it's been pretty much the same since day 1 as it is now. It is the rules of the club and extends to every member state. The UK (Conservative) government are just throwing their toys all over the room because it didn’t have the basic intellect to read the rules before embarking on this Brexit journey. The whole thing is just delusion.

There is nowhere for the EU to move; there would have to be a unanimous shift from all 27 member states in order to dilute the EU internal market regulation, and that simply isn’t going to happen because some lazy spoilt Bullingdon Trump-wannabe demands it at the final hour.

 

[Towpack]

In all of this it is obvious France and Germany are anti UK .... they just don't want us to succeed....
Frau Merkel has been making some statements that echo a certain German leader in the late 30's ....

As I see it, one of, if not the biggest obstacle to an agreement is that negotiations are being held under article 217 of the EU treaty which means any one member country can vito an agreement for any number of reasons. This means the end settlement has to be a unanimous one whereas a majority one (Article 207) would certainly cut the UK more slack. As a retiree I probably have less to lose than most, certainly the self employed/small business owner whose whole livelyhood depends heavily on well oiled bidirectional trade with the EU but, personally, I'm just thankfull Emmanuel Macron isn't in charge of the whole proceedings 'cos I don't think he and Johnson could agree on the colour of shite.

 

[Grimbo]

Macron is dubious in many ways........he appears to have married his mother to start with.....

 

[Shayne]

Political polarization is currently a global phenomenon so i ask what's driving it ? where is the link ?

Discontent has everybody on either side of any fence voting against something they see as negative . The only thing remotely resembling a positive argument i can see is "don't rock the boat"

Expert scientific formulas covering experimental trade , politics and social reforms point to a resounding success and so it would appear factual that the discontent doesn't exist and should be ignored .

What kind of a future does that take us towards ?

 

[chapel gate]

being self employed , to me , is about being autonomous , not being at the beck and call of a boss or company thats doing well because of my hard work.Instead i'm at the beck and call of customers .For those at the top who favor Brexit destroying the productive part of the UK economy will have little or no impact on their wealth as they gain their riches from financial markets , trading and property.To them a colapse in property values is a great opportunity to buy up assests at cents on the dollar as well as taking advantage of any of our money doled out to "save "the economy"
They too would like to see more self employed folks in the UK but to them that means delivering parcels for online retailers for less than minimum wage after you've paid off your van on tick & all the other expenses.It means your Mrs doing casual work , waiting for a call to do 2 or 3 hours paying her own social security.
Large sections of the working class have been impoverished in the UK over the last 40 years but politics has served up plenty of scapegoats so that even the most skint person has someone to look down on and fear.Poverty is seen as shameful and largely self inflicted as wages have shrunk or stagnated and rents/house prices have skyrocketed .Europe is just the latest bogeyman and the jingoistic nonsense about "our way of life" is meant to paper over the cracks and distract folks from what's really going on.I'm not sure who's next to be blamed for all ills but now is the time for the lower middle classes to get shafted and many will face a dramatic and permanent cut in living standards and a grim outlook for their children.Just as before went the miners ,steelworkers , fishermen and all the other skilled jobs that meant a decent standard of living was at least a possibility.Coupled with this is an increasingly authoritarian government who have openly attacked the rule of law , largely failed to deal with the pandemic but have shamelessly doled out billions in opaque contracts to their mates. A grim outlook .

anarchism, reformism, marxism, communism or whatever "ism" the latest socialist social movement is labeled as, and neatly boxed up, ready to be delivered to students, so they can call anyone who isnt vegan a racist whilst dealing with there mental health after a chance meeting with someone who voted for brexit, the bolshevik broadcasting corporation, a large proportion of the media, and local councils. to be sown to the masses via extremely privileged champagne socialist award winners at the oscars, or the obscenely payed sportsmen of this world. sorry, sports persons, i dont want to be sent to the gulag for 25 years.. the red ribbon bound box is also excitedly opened at the dinner party table of the lower middle classes, desperate to move up the social ladder to at least the same rung as mr and mrs jones in the detached next door, maybe they should foster? theres no money in it though of course.. yes, we accept mass immigration with open arms, but the poor souls are far better off living on the council estate at the other side of the "village", we really cant risk property prices falling here at the mews..

the box may as well of been delivered by amazon.

its a false prophecy, its ideology, a philosophy, its naive. yet so very sinister and hypocritical. almost cult like, if you dare oppose the machine you are labeled uneducated, racist, bigoted and lots of other words i dont even understand. what next? 25 years working in a lead mine in siberia?

one persons state oppression, is anothers stable law abiding society.

do you really think the upper elite of a socialist utopia will be any less corrupt or wealthy than any other system? really? i would argue they would be even more so.

ever since that apple incident, as long as man has free thought he will always want something more.

or maybe thats what you want to control?...

 

[Shayne]

An easy reading recap of how things were for the EU before Brexit and Covid entered the arena

The EU Printed €700 billion as a Desperate Plan to Save the Economy. It Failed. What Now?

The Eurozone has been troubled by stagnating growth and low inflation since 2013 and we still haven’t fixed problems of high national debt. In order to evade another economic earthquake similar to or even bigger than the Greek crisis and to reinstate the trust in the Euro, the European Central...

www.greeneuropeanjournal.eu

 

[goodoldboy]

anarchism, reformism, marxism, communism or whatever "ism" the latest socialist social movement is labeled as, and neatly boxed up, ready to be delivered to students, so they can call anyone who isnt vegan a racist whilst dealing with there mental health after a chance meeting with someone who voted for brexit, the bolshevik broadcasting corporation, a large proportion of the media, and local councils. to be sown to the masses via extremely privileged champagne socialist award winners at the oscars, or the obscenely payed sportsmen of this world. sorry, sports persons, i dont want to be sent to the gulag for 25 years.. the red ribbon bound box is also excitedly opened at the dinner party table of the lower middle classes, desperate to move up the social ladder to at least the same rung as mr and mrs jones in the detached next door, maybe they should foster? theres no money in it though of course.. yes, we accept mass immigration with open arms, but the poor souls are far better off living on the council estate at the other side of the "village", we really cant risk property prices falling here at the mews..

the box may as well of been delivered by amazon.

its a false prophecy, its ideology, a philosophy, its naive. yet so very sinister and hypocritical. almost cult like, if you dare oppose the machine you are labeled uneducated, racist, bigoted and lots of other words i dont even understand. what next? 25 years working in a lead mine in siberia?

one persons state oppression, is anothers stable law abiding society.

do you really think the upper elite of a socialist utopia will be any less corrupt or wealthy than any other system? really? i would argue they would be even more so.

ever since that apple incident, as long as man has free thought he will always want something more.

or maybe thats what you want to control?...

Phew , nice rant ! but you didn't trouble yourself with countering any of what i said or challenging its veracity.

do you really think the upper elite of a socialist utopia will be any less corrupt or wealthy than any other system? really? i would argue they would be even more so.

No which is why i don't advocate any hierarchical structure .

anarchism, reformism, marxism, communism or whatever "ism" the latest socialist social movement is labeled as,

Strangely enough the one ism you fail to mention is the one we are all forced to live under , capitalism .

ever since that apple incident, as long as man has free thought he will always want something more.

or maybe thats what you want to control?...

in our societies we have unlimited want , for those at the top at least but billions without their basic needs. In a true democracy basic necessity would come before 100M super Yachats.
Anyway back to the main subject .Any views on how this shitshow might benefit the vast majority of ordinary Brits ?

 

[goodoldboy]

An easy reading recap of how things were for the EU before Brexit and Covid entered the arena

The EU Printed €700 billion as a Desperate Plan to Save the Economy. It Failed. What Now?

The Eurozone has been troubled by stagnating growth and low inflation since 2013 and we still haven’t fixed problems of high national debt. In order to evade another economic earthquake similar to or even bigger than the Greek crisis and to reinstate the trust in the Euro, the European Central...

www.greeneuropeanjournal.eu

A good article non partisan but when you saw my like you knew there would be a "but...."
Pot calling kettle black