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The people have spoken

Just spending a penny today some 30 odd years ago when I wanted to be an owner driver went and took my CPC and in the course work folder it was written That There Is No Such Thing As The Self Employed You Are ALL by Someone
 
This was written by the late AA Gill before the EU referendum in 2016, I think it remains as relevant and accurate now, as it was then.

“It was the woman on Question Time that really did it for me. She was so familiar. There is someone like her in every queue, every coffee shop, outside every school in every parish council in the country. Middle-aged, middle-class, middle-brow, over-made-up, with her National Health face and weatherproof English expression of hurt righteousness, she’s Britannia’s mother-in-law. The camera closed in on her and she shouted: “All I want is my country back. Give me my country back.”
It was a heartfelt cry of real distress and the rest of the audience erupted in sympathetic applause, but I thought: “Back from what? Back from where?”
Wanting the country back is the constant mantra of all the outies. Farage slurs it, Gove insinuates it. Of course I know what they mean. We all know what they mean. They mean back from Johnny Foreigner, back from the brink, back from the future, back-to-back, back to bosky hedges and dry stone walls and country lanes and church bells and warm beer and skittles and football rattles and cheery banter and clogs on cobbles. Back to vicars-and-tarts parties and Carry On fart jokes, back to Elgar and fudge and proper weather and herbaceous borders and cars called Morris. Back to victoria sponge and 22 yards to a wicket and 15 hands to a horse and 3ft to a yard and four fingers in a Kit Kat, back to gooseberries not avocados, back to deference and respect, to make do and mend and smiling bravely and biting your lip and suffering in silence and patronising foreigners with pity.
We all know what “getting our country back” means. It’s snorting a line of the most pernicious and debilitating Little English drug, nostalgia. The warm, crumbly, honey-coloured, collective “yesterday” with its fond belief that everything was better back then, that Britain (England, really) is a worse place now than it was at some foggy point in the past where we achieved peak Blighty. It’s the knowledge that the best of us have been and gone, that nothing we can build will be as lovely as a National Trust Georgian country house, no art will be as good as a Turner, no poem as wonderful as If, no writer a touch on Shakespeare or Dickens, nothing will grow as lovely as a cottage garden, no hero greater than Nelson, no politician better than Churchill, no view more throat-catching than the White Cliffs and that we will never manufacture anything as great as a Rolls-Royce or Flying Scotsman again.
The dream of Brexit isn’t that we might be able to make a brighter, new, energetic tomorrow, it’s a desire to shuffle back to a regret-curdled inward-looking yesterday. In the Brexit fantasy, the best we can hope for is to kick out all the work-all-hours foreigners and become caretakers to our own past in this self-congratulatory island of moaning and pomposity.
And if you think that’s an exaggeration of the Brexit position, then just listen to the language they use: “We are a nation of inventors and entrepreneurs, we want to put the great back in Britain, the great engineers, the great manufacturers.” This is all the expression of a sentimental nostalgia. In the Brexiteer’s mind’s eye is the old Pathé newsreel of Donald Campbell, of John Logie Baird with his television, Barnes Wallis and his bouncing bomb, and Robert Baden-Powell inventing boy scouts in his shed.
All we need, their argument goes, is to be free of the humourless Germans and spoilsport French and all their collective liberalism and reality. There is a concomitant hope that if we manage to back out of Europe, then we’ll get back to the bowler-hatted 1950s and the Commonwealth will hold pageants, fireworks displays and beg to be back in the Queen Empress’s good books again. Then New Zealand will sacrifice a thousand lambs, Ghana will ask if it can go back to being called the Gold Coast and Britain will resume hand-making Land Rovers and top hats and Sheffield plate teapots.
There is a reason that most of the people who want to leave the EU are old while those who want to remain are young: it’s because the young aren’t infected with Bisto nostalgia. They don’t recognise half the stuff I’ve mentioned here. They’ve grown up in the EU and at worst it’s been neutral for them.
The under-thirties want to be part of things, not aloof from them. They’re about being joined-up and counted. I imagine a phrase most outies identify with is “women’s liberation has gone too far”. Everything has gone too far for them, from political correctness — well, that’s gone mad, hasn’t it? — to health and safety and gender-neutral lavatories. Those oldies, they don’t know if they’re coming or going, what with those newfangled mobile phones and kids on Tinder and Grindr. What happened to meeting Miss Joan Hunter Dunn at the tennis club? And don’t get them started on electric hand dryers, or something unrecognised in the bagging area, or Indian call centres , or the impertinent computer asking for a password that has both capitals and little letters and numbers and more than eight digits.
Brexit is the fond belief that Britain is worse now than at some point in the foggy past where we achieved peak Blighty
We listen to the Brexit lot talk about the trade deals they’re going to make with Europe after we leave, and the blithe insouciance that what they’re offering instead of EU membership is a divorce where you can still have sex with your ex. They reckon they can get out of the marriage, keep the house, not pay alimony, take the kids out of school, stop the in-laws going to the doctor, get strict with the visiting rights, but, you know, still get a shag at the weekend and, obviously, see other people on the side.
Really, that’s their best offer? That’s the plan? To swagger into Brussels with Union Jack pants on and say: “ ’Ello luv, you’re looking nice today. Would you like some?”
When the rest of us ask how that’s really going to work, leavers reply, with Terry-Thomas smirks, that “they’re going to still really fancy us, honest, they’re gagging for us. Possibly not Merkel, but the bosses of Mercedes and those French vintners and cheesemakers, they can’t get enough of old John Bull. Of course they’re going to want to go on making the free market with two backs after we’ve got the decree nisi. Makes sense, doesn’t it?”
Have no doubt, this is a divorce. It’s not just business, it’s not going to be all reason and goodwill. Like all divorces, leaving Europe would be ugly and mean and hurtful, and it would lead to a great deal of poisonous xenophobia and racism, all the niggling personal prejudice that dumped, betrayed and thwarted people are prey to. And the racism and prejudice are, of course, weak points for us. The tortuous renegotiation with lawyers and courts will be bitter and vengeful, because divorces always are and, just in passing, this sovereignty thing we’re supposed to want back so badly, like Frodo’s ring, has nothing to do with you or me. We won’t notice it coming back, because we didn’t notice not having it in the first place.
Nine out of 10 economists say ‘remain in the EU’
You won’t wake up on June 24 and think: “Oh my word, my arthritis has gone! My teeth are suddenly whiter! Magically, I seem to know how to make a soufflé and I’m buff with the power of sovereignty.” This is something only politicians care about; it makes not a jot of difference to you or me if the Supreme Court is a bunch of strangely out-of-touch old gits in wigs in Westminster or a load of strangely out-of-touch old gits without wigs in Luxembourg. What matters is that we have as many judges as possible on the side of personal freedom.
Personally, I see nothing about our legislators in the UK that makes me feel I can confidently give them more power. The more checks and balances politicians have, the better for the rest of us. You can’t have too many wise heads and different opinions. If you’re really worried about red tape, by the way, it’s not just a European problem. We’re perfectly capable of coming up with our own rules and regulations and we have no shortage of jobsworths. Red tape may be annoying, but it is also there to protect your and my family from being lied to, poisoned and cheated.
The first “X” I ever put on a voting slip was to say yes to the EU. The first referendum was when I was 20 years old. This one will be in the week of my 62nd birthday. For nearly all my adult life, there hasn’t been a day when I haven’t been pleased and proud to be part of this great collective. If you ask me for my nationality, the truth is I feel more European than anything else. I am part of this culture, this European civilisation. I can walk into any gallery on our continent and completely understand the images and the stories on the walls. These people are my people and they have been for thousands of years. I can read books on subjects from Ancient Greece to Dark Ages Scandinavia, from Renaissance Italy to 19th-century France, and I don’t need the context or the landscape explained to me. The music of Europe, from its scales and its instruments to its rhythms and religion, is my music. The Renaissance, the rococo, the Romantics, the impressionists, gothic, baroque, neoclassicism, realism, expressionism, futurism, fauvism, cubism, dada, surrealism, postmodernism and kitsch were all European movements and none of them belongs to a single nation.
No time for walls: the best of Europe, from its music and food to IM Pei’s pyramid at the Louvre, depends on an easy collision of cultures
There is a reason why the Chinese are making fake Italian handbags and the Italians aren’t making fake Chinese ones. This European culture, without question or argument, is the greatest, most inventive, subtle, profound, beautiful and powerful genius that was ever contrived anywhere by anyone and it belongs to us. Just look at my day job — food. The change in food culture and pleasure has been enormous since we joined the EU, and that’s no coincidence. What we eat, the ingredients, the recipes, may come from around the world, but it is the collective to and fro of European interests, expertise and imagination that has made it all so very appetising and exciting.
The restaurant was a European invention, naturally. The first one in Paris was called The London Bridge.
Culture works and grows through the constant warp and weft of creators, producers, consumers, intellectuals and instinctive lovers. You can’t dictate or legislate for it, you can just make a place that encourages it and you can truncate it. You can make it harder and more grudging, you can put up barriers and you can build walls, but why on earth would you? This collective culture, this golden civilisation grown on this continent over thousands of years, has made everything we have and everything we are, why would you not want to be part of it?
I understand that if we leave we don’t have to hand back our library ticket for European civilisation, but why would we even think about it? In fact, the only ones who would are those old, philistine scared gits. Look at them, too frightened to join in.
 
This was written by the late AA Gill before the EU referendum in 2016, I think it remains as relevant and accurate now, as it was then.

Absolutely spot on. Brexit is regressive, racist, isolationist, delusional and utterly, utterly ignorant.
 
Must accept the best minds in the business came up with the 2008 credit crunch recovery plan and 10 years later all agree it failed in everything it aimed to achieve . America had more or less the same plan with only slightly better results perhaps because it is and was the only way forward .

Growth continued almost in spite of this failure though slowly and never enough to balance the books which remained 800 billion in arrears .

When Covid hit there was no money to balance things up top because failure to shore up crumbling foundations during the first crisis would bring the house of cards down if they did the same in the second crisis . The result direct to business investment - with money already spent , but thats ok because they have a 1.82 trillion recovery plan which will swallow up all evidence of the missing 800 billion . Its kicking the can down the road , a denial of the highest order . Sooner or later a few millionaires will have to give up their private jets but not before everyone beneath them on the financial ladder lost everything they ever worked for .

Regardless of all that the point i'm trying to make is recovery demands investment and a no deal Brexit demands 67 million people are put to work in gainful employment . People who struggle to make ends meet don't buy houses or new cars , don't get loans , they don't support banks and fill government coffers . Back room billionaire transactions that put thousands out of a job with a wink and a greased palm are far harder to hide when it happens locally and party politics concerned only with Britain would be very quick to point the finger of accusation .

"taking back control" is a nice soundbite but "an end to a era of resistance is futile" might fit better .
 
The recovery plan worked fine Shayne.the banks and big investors got off Scott free & we paid for it.international finance is divorced from national economies .everyone struggling & a flatlining economy has with a few exceptions been the norm for 40 years.now they're coming for the little that's left.
 
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ive been self employed since i was 19. i have a extremely small pot to piss in. i have a mortgage and a four year old. my mrs is also a self employed sole trader, who has hardly been able to work this year due to covid.

i would still vote the same way again.

Would that be for leaving ?
 
Explains exactly why I voted leave.

And also the reason I voted to leave.
Lets do something good with our Island.
I am confident that given the possible tariffs that the EU will charge to us, I feel the rest of the world becons.
When EU see us buying from the rest of the world, just watch the individual countries lower, or remove their tarrifs.

Then wait for the in-fighting.
 
And also the reason I voted to leave.
Lets do something good with our Island.
I am confident that given the possible tariffs that the EU will charge to us, I feel the rest of the world becons.
When EU see us buying from the rest of the world, just watch the individual countries lower, or remove their tarrifs.

Then wait for the in-fighting.
We have like many on here a wide and varied group of good friends from around the world and the EU in particular...
The thing that the remain and the pro remain media either chose to ignore or deliberately not report was the many 20 something European youngsters who wished us well and wanted the UK to succeed and their country to follow us.....Dutch , Belgians and French , much like the UK it was not just those that A A Gill tried to portray as leavers or Gammons
The Dutch youngsters in particular had exactly the same opinion's and dislikes on the EU as the middle aged UK friends amongst the worries and reasons to leave or wishing to leave were
1... The undemocratic nature of the EU ....
2... Excessive immigration and the fact that immigrant's are given and entitled to more than natives
3... Increasing EU control of their Country and the move to centralised control by the EU.....who incidentally have never had their accounts signed off ... they clearly stated they believed corruption was endemic within the EU leadership
4... They believed the EU was going to fail due to the amount new country's being admitted that were economically unfit

We are leaving ...fact ....and the best thing all those that voted remain can and should do is now quit hand wringing and moaning or smugly saying "I told you so" is to get behind the UK and UK Government and in the words of a great man " Knock it off with them negative waves man "
 
The recovery plan worked fine Shayne.the banks and big investors got off Scott free & we paid for it.international finance is divorced from national economies .everyone struggling & a flatlining economy has with a few exceptions been the norm for 40 years.now they're coming for the little that's left.

40 years huh now theres an ironic coincidence , and yet you support the very body that facilitates it :crazy: the divorce you mention is a system designed to sidestep democracy and the people who actually pay for it all .
 
40 years huh now theres an ironic coincidence , and yet you support the very body that facilitates it :crazy: the divorce you mention is a system designed to sidestep democracy and the people who actually pay for it all .
I don't support them Shayne and i think a lot of what you say about the EU is spot on.It's dominated by Germany and France , major corporations have far too much power in decision making - the car industry for example - it prints money to bail out a failing system and has totalitarian tendencies. Greece got asset stripped , shafted by German banks and if Syriza had any principles they could have left and dealt a mortal blow to the single currency. But Brexit isn't about righting those wrongs. The post war years were an exception both socially and economically. The social contract between left parties , unions and capital meant a joint management of capitalism with benefits for both sides. The physical destruction of capital in the form of bombed out cities across Europe meant that a Keynesian solution - rebuilding stuff and circulating money - benefited all with rising wages and consumption that with high taxes on the rich paid for public housing , education and healthcare. This ran out of steam with the OPEC crisis , the Vietnam war and the US leaving the gold standard and the end of the Bretton Woods agreement .
The elements within the Tory party who advocate brexit don't give a toss about 99% of the British population and want what the most reactionary elements in Europe want - but on their own terms .
 
We have like many on here a wide and varied group of good friends from around the world and the EU in particular...
The thing that the remain and the pro remain media either chose to ignore or deliberately not report was the many 20 something European youngsters who wished us well and wanted the UK to succeed and their country to follow us.....Dutch , Belgians and French , much like the UK it was not just those that A A Gill tried to portray as leavers or Gammons
The Dutch youngsters in particular had exactly the same opinion's and dislikes on the EU as the middle aged UK friends amongst the worries and reasons to leave or wishing to leave were
1... The undemocratic nature of the EU ....
2... Excessive immigration and the fact that immigrant's are given and entitled to more than natives
3... Increasing EU control of their Country and the move to centralised control by the EU.....who incidentally have never had their accounts signed off ... they clearly stated they believed corruption was endemic within the EU leadership
4... They believed the EU was going to fail due to the amount new country's being admitted that were economically unfit

We are leaving ...fact ....and the best thing all those that voted remain can and should do is now quit hand wringing and moaning or smugly saying "I told you so" is to get behind the UK and UK Government and in the words of a great man " Knock it off with them negative waves man "
1 and 3 i can agree with.
4 i think is up for debate . Germany managed to integrate the east after the fall of the Soviet Union without going under.
2. Racism and bullshit.
 
the possible tariffs that the EU will charge to us,
no deal = WTO rules apply.
When EU see us buying from the rest of the world, just watch the individual countries lower, or remove their tarrifs.
They can't if they're EU members. If the UK can source the fruit and veg it buys from Europe from other countries customs costs and transport will hike up the prices considerably .
 
We all know nobody in power gives a damn about the masses but they have finally realized its the slaves that empower them .

Europe produces nothing that can't be produced here and they cant sell it to anyone else .
 
1 and 3 i can agree with.
4 i think is up for debate . Germany managed to integrate the east after the fall of the Soviet Union without going under.
2. Racism and bullshit.
To call wanting a level playing field for Dutch born teenagers who can't afford to rent a flat or leave home yet see migrants given a flat rent free and a substantial amount a moth to live on Racist is not fair or reasonable .... same as the UK they want a level playing field regardless of background and they see the EU as the cause of the fact that it plainly isn't ..... the EU leaders failure to recognise the strength of feeling this issue cause's is one of the biggest reasons many Brits voted leave , why should their taxes be used to fund people who have contributed nothing to the country when pensioners who have, are penalised or have their retirement age raised from 60 to 65 at the stroke of a pen depriving or actually stealing circa 50K from many women who paid taxes all their lives... it's not racist it's the inane sense of fair play the Brits and Dutch share ...

Integrating East and West Germany nearly bankrupted Germany ...... many of the later country's joining the EU are much poorer than E Germany ...
 
Phew , nice rant ! but you didn't trouble yourself with countering any of what i said or challenging its veracity.

i feel i did, read my "rant" in context with your post.

No which is why i don't advocate any hierarchical structure .

again, human nature reveals one of the fundamental flaws in socialism. stick twenty people on a desert island and within the first hour a hierarchical structure will begin to develop. probable subconsciously at first, but this will become more established after each passing day.



Strangely enough the one ism you fail to mention is the one we are all forced to live under , capitalism .

quite deliberate. im sure you wont agree, but i find capitalism more transparent. far less sinister. it is unashamedly what it aspires to be. work hard, earn cash. improve ones life. hopefully reaches the poorer and improves there life eventually also. or they also work harder to earn cash to improve there own lives. before you set your laptop on fire, im not saying i entirely agree with the system.

Anyway back to the main subject .Any views on how this shitshow might benefit the vast majority of ordinary Brits ?

i think most people have said why they voted how they did in this thread, and my thread on the original in/out vote.
i have a far longer answer for you, but its getting late..:)
 
Interestingly, it seems we may be close to a deal - all rumours seem to suggest we (UK) has rowed back on some of the red line.

Will have to wait and see.....watch this space!
 
No deal is like throwing billions into a furnace on both sides of the fence , whatever the outcome the BBC will report Britain was defeated .
 
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