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Disconnected front anti roll bar difference vid
- Thread starter Matt Vee
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Matt Vee
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Ok so yesterday I jacked one side up in order to replace the weird air intake snoot thingy that lives underneath the passenger side wheel arch and thought while I was there I would do some measuring and investigations into what exactly restricts the travel on these trucks.
I took a measurement of droop from neutral position on the ground and with the side jacked up, the answer was 100mm or about 4 inches, so I am assuming, possibly in error that the uptravel from neutral is 4" as well or thereabouts, giving a total of 8" total travel. Not to shabby for a production IFS in my opinion, considering a Dakar truck has 11" that's only three inches to find.
I disconnected the ARB first to see exactly how much it is restricting droop on an "unweighted wheel" with the other wheel in static compression, the answer is 10mm.
This doesn't sound like much, and it isn't but it's a 10% increase so if I can find a few more 10% increases then it might be worth bothering.
Next I observed the shitey little balljoint that resides in the upper control arm is pretty much binding at full droop and the CV is at a funky angle so like many of you probably know a diff drop would be in order.
I don't know how much the shock is restricting motion but a quick glance at "shock replacement vids suggested by the effort to remove them that there is a little bit more to be had from the set up, maybe another 10% from forcing it down, by extending the shock length. Like I assume lift kits do.
I'm still not sure if the lift kits actually lift the truck via an extended shock eye or stiffer spring and no travel increase or both and I'm not forking out 600 quid to find out, as I suspect they do.
Anyway to outline why I am going through this seemingly pointless investigation is I wish to work out how I can get a bit more droop and fit 33's without cutting the body away whilst retaining the factory suspension travel and spring rate/load i.e keep the standard "ride height" in terms of geometry and add an inch to the actual ground clearance so blasting around the local forestry roads becomes a realistic option.
It looks like my truck is on the original shocks and springs as the shocks are stamped "Toyota" and a serial number. I looked through the service history which is pretty good up until 5 years ago and there is no record of them being changed out. I think I will get some new OEM shocks and springs to see if shit gets a little less bumpy, if it doesn't I'll start looking at some upgrade shocks/springs.
In my investigations I came across this vid, which is pretty impressive tbh it's a next gen prado but they are pretty much the same underneath in terms of geometry and factory construction, so at least I know it's possible.
You may ask yourself why I am doing this? so am I, lol, it's because I'm a bit weird like that, I like making things better
I took a measurement of droop from neutral position on the ground and with the side jacked up, the answer was 100mm or about 4 inches, so I am assuming, possibly in error that the uptravel from neutral is 4" as well or thereabouts, giving a total of 8" total travel. Not to shabby for a production IFS in my opinion, considering a Dakar truck has 11" that's only three inches to find.
I disconnected the ARB first to see exactly how much it is restricting droop on an "unweighted wheel" with the other wheel in static compression, the answer is 10mm.
This doesn't sound like much, and it isn't but it's a 10% increase so if I can find a few more 10% increases then it might be worth bothering.
Next I observed the shitey little balljoint that resides in the upper control arm is pretty much binding at full droop and the CV is at a funky angle so like many of you probably know a diff drop would be in order.
I don't know how much the shock is restricting motion but a quick glance at "shock replacement vids suggested by the effort to remove them that there is a little bit more to be had from the set up, maybe another 10% from forcing it down, by extending the shock length. Like I assume lift kits do.
I'm still not sure if the lift kits actually lift the truck via an extended shock eye or stiffer spring and no travel increase or both and I'm not forking out 600 quid to find out, as I suspect they do.
Anyway to outline why I am going through this seemingly pointless investigation is I wish to work out how I can get a bit more droop and fit 33's without cutting the body away whilst retaining the factory suspension travel and spring rate/load i.e keep the standard "ride height" in terms of geometry and add an inch to the actual ground clearance so blasting around the local forestry roads becomes a realistic option.
It looks like my truck is on the original shocks and springs as the shocks are stamped "Toyota" and a serial number. I looked through the service history which is pretty good up until 5 years ago and there is no record of them being changed out. I think I will get some new OEM shocks and springs to see if shit gets a little less bumpy, if it doesn't I'll start looking at some upgrade shocks/springs.
In my investigations I came across this vid, which is pretty impressive tbh it's a next gen prado but they are pretty much the same underneath in terms of geometry and factory construction, so at least I know it's possible.
You may ask yourself why I am doing this? so am I, lol, it's because I'm a bit weird like that, I like making things better
How long before that rear carrier falls off!!
IFS is funny stuff as you're discovering. The geometry is quite strange. In the quest to fit larger tyres people have tried and failed due to either rubbing at the back or through crazy CV angles frightening them off. The key to bigger rubber isn't really to go UP; it's to go FORWARDS. Now a suspension lift does do some of that but you are limited by the adjustments on the bottom wishbone cams. I really can't give you the maths, but you are more likey to get bigger rubber on by fitting Superpro adjustable top arms and maxing out on bottom adjustment rather than spening the same money on springs and shox. You can get a second type of lift which I fitted many years ago and that's a strut spacer lift. This goes in between the three bolt top mount and the strut. Dues to the geometry you only need something like a 10 mm spacer to give a 2" lift but it pushes the centre of the wheel forwards more without affecting the angle to the top wishbone as much. We had a Finnish guy on here many years ago who managed to get 35's on his collie. You can also do a diff drop which is pretty easy to do unless you want to fit bash plates then it's a little more awkward. You just need spacers and a couple of longer bolts. The back of the diff sits in a pivot so all you're doing is dropping it at the front. That allows more leeway on the CVs.
Have I tried all of this? Yes I have. I've done body lift, diff drop, spacer lift, strut lift but never adjustable top arms. You can, from the States, get a top ball joint drop kit which returns your top arms to normal and helps with camber, but as I am doing the same thing basically on my Hilux at the second, I really favour those sliding adjustable top wishbones. I've had my geometry done and whilst it's in the green, some of the figures are right smack bang on the border between green and red. I'd liek to bring those back a bit.
IFS is funny stuff as you're discovering. The geometry is quite strange. In the quest to fit larger tyres people have tried and failed due to either rubbing at the back or through crazy CV angles frightening them off. The key to bigger rubber isn't really to go UP; it's to go FORWARDS. Now a suspension lift does do some of that but you are limited by the adjustments on the bottom wishbone cams. I really can't give you the maths, but you are more likey to get bigger rubber on by fitting Superpro adjustable top arms and maxing out on bottom adjustment rather than spening the same money on springs and shox. You can get a second type of lift which I fitted many years ago and that's a strut spacer lift. This goes in between the three bolt top mount and the strut. Dues to the geometry you only need something like a 10 mm spacer to give a 2" lift but it pushes the centre of the wheel forwards more without affecting the angle to the top wishbone as much. We had a Finnish guy on here many years ago who managed to get 35's on his collie. You can also do a diff drop which is pretty easy to do unless you want to fit bash plates then it's a little more awkward. You just need spacers and a couple of longer bolts. The back of the diff sits in a pivot so all you're doing is dropping it at the front. That allows more leeway on the CVs.
Have I tried all of this? Yes I have. I've done body lift, diff drop, spacer lift, strut lift but never adjustable top arms. You can, from the States, get a top ball joint drop kit which returns your top arms to normal and helps with camber, but as I am doing the same thing basically on my Hilux at the second, I really favour those sliding adjustable top wishbones. I've had my geometry done and whilst it's in the green, some of the figures are right smack bang on the border between green and red. I'd liek to bring those back a bit.
Matt Vee
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Cool, thanks dude, that save me some thinking and confirms the plan I was mulling over 
I was thinking of using an SPC adjustable upper control arm and adjusting the bottom control arm forward, nearly 800 quid for it shipped kind of sucks ass though eh, 186 of which is just import tax and a further 86 quid shipping
Maybe I will make my own, or maybe I will make upper and lower to just move it forward and loose none of the adjustment on the bottom arm.
I was thinking of using an SPC adjustable upper control arm and adjusting the bottom control arm forward, nearly 800 quid for it shipped kind of sucks ass though eh, 186 of which is just import tax and a further 86 quid shipping
Maybe I will make my own, or maybe I will make upper and lower to just move it forward and loose none of the adjustment on the bottom arm.
Matt Vee
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Ok so if you get a lift to put 33's on, when the suspension compresses do they not just interfere anyway? Do 33's interfere on the back at all with or without a lift? am I barking up the wrong tree here totally and the message is "don't put 33's on at all?
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Beau
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Many people run a 2 inch lift and clear 33" tires fine. Offset of wheels will determine if you have any touching problems on lock, alongside how much positive caster you have. The SPC arms fixes a lot for those wanting more than a 33" tire as you can get 4+ degrees of caster, 0 degree camber, and more clearance on the back where tires tend to touch the pinch weld seam. You can grind/hammer out this seal for additional clearance.
Have a look at this 3rd gen 4runner forum, which runs the same suspension as us. Many people over here run 33's without a problem, and by this thread, many also run 35's too. It seems the drivetrain and suspension cope well. But of course you still have to be careful off road when pushing those CV angles.
Have a look at this 3rd gen 4runner forum, which runs the same suspension as us. Many people over here run 33's without a problem, and by this thread, many also run 35's too. It seems the drivetrain and suspension cope well. But of course you still have to be careful off road when pushing those CV angles.
Matt Vee
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Ok this thread is gonna turn into a "my build thread" for your entertainment.
Picked up a BFG mud terrain tyre from a set we have kicking about the father in laws garage that came off one of the land rovers. I picked the one with the most tread left, still even has the little spiky bits left on it, drove home, got it mounted on the spare wheel and then cried into my cup of tea because I had only gone and picked the one with the big fuck off split in it so it wouldn't hold air (garage is 20 miles from my place) lol
Anyway I jacked up the truck, chucked it on to see what the clearance was like. Had 1" on the back edge at all steering positions, so 33.5's are not going to happen with some major surgery. Hey ho never mind.
The test fit wasn't massively accurate because I let the weight on the tyre and it was flat as a pancake but it gave me a rough idea.
Also picked up a new tank stone guard, which I am super happy about as I have been looking for ages It's going to get some modification so it actually has a chance of protecting the tank from actual rocks not just stones kicked up from the track before it goes on.
Pleased.
Also, took the shocks out and got a big pry bar and went wild trying to determine the actual limit to the CV's/bushes/balljoints.
Conclusions:
Top ball joint is a miserable git and needs to go- new UCA needs to be made.
My bushes are completely shagged, they are hard as Parmesan cheese- new bushes needed.
Steering arm ball joints are not really a factor at this point.
Diff drop required- going to fashion some 1" spacers.
Fitted some new spots, one blew up, booooooooo, contacted supplier, they don't sell bulbs for it...... More BOOOOOOOOOOOO!
I think the old corroded fuse was the culprit, maybe, not sure, the bulb could be quacked or the ballast, I am really crap with car electrics so if anyone would like to speculate for me, feel free, I have two new bulbs coming from another vendor that I hope will fit/work.
Pics of bargain thing, all it needed was a few beatings with a hammer and the dents popped back out, showing exactly how pathetic it is in it's stock form:
Picked up a BFG mud terrain tyre from a set we have kicking about the father in laws garage that came off one of the land rovers. I picked the one with the most tread left, still even has the little spiky bits left on it, drove home, got it mounted on the spare wheel and then cried into my cup of tea because I had only gone and picked the one with the big fuck off split in it so it wouldn't hold air (garage is 20 miles from my place) lol
Anyway I jacked up the truck, chucked it on to see what the clearance was like. Had 1" on the back edge at all steering positions, so 33.5's are not going to happen with some major surgery. Hey ho never mind.
The test fit wasn't massively accurate because I let the weight on the tyre and it was flat as a pancake but it gave me a rough idea.
Also picked up a new tank stone guard, which I am super happy about as I have been looking for ages
It's going to get some modification so it actually has a chance of protecting the tank from actual rocks not just stones kicked up from the track before it goes on. Pleased.
Also, took the shocks out and got a big pry bar and went wild trying to determine the actual limit to the CV's/bushes/balljoints.
Conclusions:
Top ball joint is a miserable git and needs to go- new UCA needs to be made.
My bushes are completely shagged, they are hard as Parmesan cheese- new bushes needed.
Steering arm ball joints are not really a factor at this point.
Diff drop required- going to fashion some 1" spacers.
Fitted some new spots, one blew up, booooooooo, contacted supplier, they don't sell bulbs for it...... More BOOOOOOOOOOOO!
I think the old corroded fuse was the culprit, maybe, not sure, the bulb could be quacked or the ballast, I am really crap with car electrics so if anyone would like to speculate for me, feel free, I have two new bulbs coming from another vendor that I hope will fit/work.
Pics of bargain thing, all it needed was a few beatings with a hammer and the dents popped back out, showing exactly how pathetic it is in it's stock form:
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I have the SPC arms so i can post up some comparison pics when i get around to digging out the other side to fit .
Just started putting the black beast 90 back together and while doing so decided i don't want my Pedders lift any more so i have 4 very firm springs to bang on ebay soon . Fact is nobody makes a lift specifically for the swb 90 and its not heavy enough for uprated 95 springs even with a winch bumper .
Just started putting the black beast 90 back together and while doing so decided i don't want my Pedders lift any more so i have 4 very firm springs to bang on ebay soon . Fact is nobody makes a lift specifically for the swb 90 and its not heavy enough for uprated 95 springs even with a winch bumper .
Beau
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Thats surprising Shayne. Thought the load on the front would be the same regardless if LWB or SWB. The rear I understand, but still, it can't be THAT much lighter can it? Maybe you should look into airbags to assist a softer spring, or stiffer shock. I really like how the 80 series shock rides on the rear
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I figure the length plays a part in it Beau rather like equal weight hammers hit harder with a longer handle , but fact is while i liked the hard ride when i started to reassemble the premonition my screwfix coil compressors were going to snap really got me thinking on how little give these springs offer . Chatting about it while ordering my +40cm 50kg OME they claimed its because Pedders is a brand name rather than a manufacturer ?
Beau
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The front springs are stiff for sure, but remember they don't do much in terms of travel compared to the rear. I'm still on original springs 250k miles and they give a good ride with my current bilstein 5100 shock setup with about 2 inches of lift.
