eu in or out poll

[Rob Cowell]

But, if the UK government (read any) had a backbone and stood up to big businesses, and stopped pumping money into 'the EU club' the UK would have the resources to make the plant clean, witness the 2 million investment in Aberthaw in 2014 . Now I cannot remember the exact figure the UK pays into the EU daily but, 2 million is about three hours worth! Now put the money into the plant, or even better build a better plant, this would boost employment in the area, the air would be clean....er, there would be no court case, and you would not be paying the bill.

regards

Dave

I don't think there is any issue with paying for the improvements. I think, but am not certain, it would have been RWE that has to pay it. They are responsible for producing electricity, the UK government is responsible for ensuring legislation is adhered to. I think it is about 1 hour 50 minutes of EU money if the UK govt paid. Or you could think of it as 1 minute and 30 seconds of daily spend by the UK government. Or think of it as us getting income tax reduced by 1%.

Income tax. That generates £150Billion a year. Leave the EU and we get £10Billion back. So the financial difference, assuming it all goes into personal income tax reduction would give us (tax payers; 30 million of us) all back 91 pence/day. I can splash out on a couple of pints of milk, but it's not going to change my life.

I take your point about if the government had more backbone. But it clearly doesn't. And it'll be the same government in power if we leave the EU. And in 3 or 4 years time the choice of the next PM will realistically be Boris or George.

I do think there is a danger of pinning all of the country's ills on the EU, and then being disappointed how little those issues change if we leave.

 

[chapel gate]

just to put some context on the fact that the plant would cost 1 million a day to keep open, Britain spends 11 billion a year in foreign aid..

 

[Rob Cowell]

just to put some context on the fact that the plant would cost 1 million a day to keep open, Britain spends 11 billion a year in foreign aid..

Like me, I know you are very proud of the UK's history and achievements. Do you not see this as a continuation of the civilising influences of what was once the Empire? We've always sought to improve the lives of others around the world haven't we?

I do though think it's easy to argue that the Department for International Development has inefficiencies that should be addressed with regards to these aims.

One thing we do know is that their budget will remain exactly the same relative to GDP after the referendum.

 

[Pat]

Just in reply to the hopeless wanderer,I am the son of a Dalmatian who arrived in NZ in 1903 and a NZ born girl of Irish parents born in 1896.The Dalmatian grandparents who were born in the 1860's paid passage for two of their sons to go
to a country that needed young workers and did they work,no handouts.The circumstances that faced my Irish grandfather was similar,out here working in mines,digging drains by hand,no handouts.My Irish grandmother shipped out to NZ to be a domestic worker,no handouts.They worked like hell and got ahead,The Irish side respected farmers in the Waikato and my father a well respected contractor and sportsman and did it all with no handouts.
My opinion about Australia stopping the boats did not need a Donald Trump to arouse me.Ask yourself if these people in their home countries had applied themselves,heads down and work would they have found themselves at odds with
their local society so they had to leave?I don't know but I sure do not agree with the liberal movements in various countries that out a rod upon our backs to support what may be very undesirable people.
I have lived and worked alongside all races and try my best to on well with all folks but bludgers can go to blazes.
It is a most interesting debate.

 

[Pat]

By the way you at like a photo of my grandparents and their family.(circa 1910) You would be scared to misbehave.

 

[Rob Cowell]

Of course I don't know your ancestors, and I certainly don't know what live was like in Croatia in the 19th centuary, but I wonder how many people left their homelands for Australasia for purely benevolent reasons? If they worked hard at home and were comfortable and successful did they travel to help a new nation, or did they think they could be even more successful? I suspect many people worked very hard where they were. In Ireland certainly. But geographic and political circumstances conspired against them and they sought to better themselves despite a major upheavel. I'm sure some were seduced by rumours of an easy life and didn't do at all well. I personally don't see this being as any different then as it is now, and many people emigrate, work hard and are a credit to their new homes. Yes we have welfare now, but we also have electric lights, and enclosed sewers; as society and civilization we have made improvements some of which alter the dynamics of everyday life.

 

[MarkW]

I don't think there is any issue with paying for the improvements. I think, but am not certain, it would have been RWE that has to pay it. They are responsible for producing electricity, the UK government is responsible for ensuring legislation is adhered to.

Yep, its the owners cost to comply and the states to enforce (unless state owned)

Income tax. That generates £150Billion a year. Leave the EU and we get £10Billion back. So the financial difference, assuming it all goes into personal income tax reduction would give us (tax payers; 30 million of us) all back 91 pence/day. I can splash out on a couple of pints of milk, but it's not going to change my life.

I do think there is a danger of pinning all of the country's ills on the EU, and then being disappointed how little those issues change if we leave.

I think a lot of people see the EU as something to blame for all the countries issues and they'll be sadly disappointed when after leaving nothing changes

 

[hopeless wanderer]

Just in reply to the hopeless wanderer,I am the son of a Dalmatian who arrived in NZ in 1903 and a NZ born girl of Irish parents born in 1896.The Dalmatian grandparents who were born in the 1860's paid passage for two of their sons to go
to a country that needed young workers and did they work,no handouts.The circumstances that faced my Irish grandfather was similar,out here working in mines,digging drains by hand,no handouts.My Irish grandmother shipped out to NZ to be a domestic worker,no handouts.They worked like hell and got ahead,The Irish side respected farmers in the Waikato and my father a well respected contractor and sportsman and did it all with no handouts.
My opinion about Australia stopping the boats did not need a Donald Trump to arouse me.Ask yourself if these people in their home countries had applied themselves,heads down and work would they have found themselves at odds with
their local society so they had to leave?I don't know but I sure do not agree with the liberal movements in various countries that out a rod upon our backs to support what may be very undesirable people.
I have lived and worked alongside all races and try my best to on well with all folks but bludgers can go to blazes.
It is a most interesting debate.

Pat I just don't think you are making the distinction between refugees and migrants.
The people Australia turns away are refugees. It's a different issue between New Zealand and Australia altogether when it comes to it's settlement.
Australia was founded on the subjugation of the indigenous population New Zealand wasn't. Ok It was a bit crooked in its Translation but the Waitangi treaty was entirely different to how Australia was colonised.
The policies Australia has in place basically make it a pariah nation when it's compared to the rest of the world.
I personally wouldn't expect any better based on its relatively recent history of enslaving Aboriginal workers in much the same way Irish slaves were taken to America as "Servants".
Aboriginal workers had up to 70% of their salaries withheld and put in government trusts, bearing in mind they were paid a tenth of what the actual salary that non Aboriganal workers received. So after 60 years of work some people found their trust contained less than 100 Aussie dollars. This is the foundation on which Australian immigration policy is built.
Add to that the removal of Aboriginal children from their families which started as a Eugenics programme the Nazis would be proud of, The minister who had the title "protector of the Aborigine" referred to the policy as breeding out the colour!
Now these aren't some dark chapter from the pages of history this went on as recently as the 1970's and its effects are still very much apparent. You can find the average life expectancy of Aboriginals as low as 37 years in places. Australia is the only developed nation in the world that hasn't eradicated trachoma, an entirely preventable disease that blinds aboriginal kids. It's easy to say "bloody Abbos are all drunks etc" as is the oft chanted mantra but then it's easy to blame the victims. We have a whole to series called benefit street that demonises the poor too.
So when the Australian government creates its frankly disgusting immigration policies it's based on this ideological foundation and can't you just tell.

 

[Dave2000]

completely agree. at heart im very proud of my country. its history, its achievements, its people. its country side, its architecture, but you know what, for the first time in my life im actually thinking all of this really is in the past. if steel production ceases in this country we really are a complete and utter farce. Belgium has its own steel industry ffs! steel production if nothing else is of strategic importance, the 5th largest economy in the world cant produce its own steel?!

is there any point any more? let the left have there way and flood the country with immigrants, let them destroy all of our institutions and erode all that makes up the very fabric of this country. let the republicans dissolve the monarchy. let the property developers build all over the countryside. lets sell off the last remaining great brands, even the successful ones get sold off. lets keep spending millions on scumbags with ten kids so they can get pissed every day and have sky tv. lets keep spending millions in foreign aid while ex soldiers sleep on the street. I could go on and on and on and..... whats the point? I don't stay here for the weather..

Damn! I read this and thought I must have sleep walked to the laptop and put all my thoughts to the ether and returned to bed.

THIS IS EXACTLY THE THOUGHTS THAT SO MANY ARE AFRAID OF SAYING! I tried but cannot give 100 thumbs up!!

regards

Dave

 

[hopeless wanderer]

Wow they look really stern Pat. The guy on the right probably can't turn his head for the starch in his collar.
My girlfriend is Maori, Her paternal grandfather married a Maori Chiefs daughter. She has the funniest old photo like yours of the whole Whanau at the Marae. Basically it's all the menfolk of the tribe in all their ceremonial dress and Ta moko etc and right at the front is a ginger Scotsman

 

[Shayne]

That's is probably one of the most shocking things I've read in a while.

How would you explain to a parent of a child killed through air pollution health issues that a democratic vote decided clean air legislation wasn't wanted?

Sometime laws need to be made whether the public want it or not for thier protection

what you just said is "believe my lies or children will die" .
I guess the EU can afford to purchase any number of forged death certificates citing air pollution as the cause of death even if none exist today .

I know a lad who was sent to prison when he was 18 for being gay , he was sent for his own good of course or at least that's what the extremists would tell you .

 

[hopeless wanderer]

Damn! I read this and thought I must have sleep walked to the laptop and put all my thoughts to the ether and returned to bed.

THIS IS EXACTLY THE THOUGHTS THAT SO MANY ARE AFRAID OF SAYING! I tried but cannot give 100 thumbs up!!

regards

Dave

completely agree. at heart im very proud of my country. its history, its achievements, its people. its country side, its architecture, but you know what, for the first time in my life im actually thinking all of this really is in the past. if steel production ceases in this country we really are a complete and utter farce. Belgium has its own steel industry ffs! steel production if nothing else is of strategic importance, the 5th largest economy in the world cant produce its own steel?!

is there any point any more? let the left have there way and flood the country with immigrants, let them destroy all of our institutions and erode all that makes up the very fabric of this country. let the republicans dissolve the monarchy. let the property developers build all over the countryside. lets sell off the last remaining great brands, even the successful ones get sold off. lets keep spending millions on scumbags with ten kids so they can get pissed every day and have sky tv. lets keep spending millions in foreign aid while ex soldiers sleep on the street. I could go on and on and on and..... whats the point? I don't stay here for the weather..

Well i just have to grasp the nettle i suppose

Yes we've done lots of great things for the world and by and large our people are like much of the rest of the planet jolly nice folk, but come on... pop of the rose tinted specs for a while.
We invented the concentration camp, We starved millions of Irish to death during the potato "FAMINE", We machine gunned unarmed people from as far apart as Calcutta to Northern Ireland, We armed and trained the Khmer rouge and taught them how to lay mines (that worked out really well for Cambodians) We supported Saddam Hussein, Augusto Pinochet and "Colonel" Gadaffi (weeks before he was overthrown the SAS were training his bodyguards).
We pour milllions of pounds of money into an arms manufacuring industry that bribes Saudi Arabia to buy our weapons, yet its beheaded 80 people so far this year including children and the mentally ill, as well as political dissidents (which basically means anyone who steps out of line) We supplied jet fighters to Suharto at the same time Indonesia was commiting genocide in East Timor (Australia was in on that one too). We (our government) was complict in the murder of hundreds of thousands of Iraqi civillians because we didn't get satisfactory proof that they disposed of the chemical weapons we supplied them with the week before ??!!!
As for architechture. I love a flying butress on a Norman church as much as the next man (probably more TBH) but i do realise they're French, I love the countryside of Yorkshire and Cumbria and the Highlands and Broads or whatever but i also realise that only 2% of the UK is developed so we are far from overcrowded. I realise the Tunnels of the London underground were dug by Irish navvies who lived in squallor, I know the Indians and Pakistanis worked the mills of the Midlands like i know the Poles are working in the hotels and factories today.
As for soldiers off the streets it was founded by BNP members so thats how riteous they are. Living on the streets is marginally better than some of the squalid married quarters for serving soldiers at Catterick Garrison, Cause our leaders love our forces ... WHEN THEY'RE DEAD.
Cos ambling upto the cenotaph for a photo opportunity once a year is cheaper than investing in medical help and counselling for the poor sods with PTSD who actually have to go and do the dirty work, so that your oil company pals can make sure all those shares and investments turn a profit.
Sucessive governments are a disgrace, they still havent paid out the veterans who were in the bomb tests of the 50's. "Dont look at the flash lads but you can look at the mushroom cloud"

If anyone has destroyed our institutions it's US (or at least our elected leaders) Not some fella from Poland, Pakistan or anywhere else. The only "Europeans" worth having their purse strings tightened are at SW1A 1AA.

 

[MarkW]

what you just said is "believe my lies or children will die" .
I guess the EU can afford to purchase any number of forged death certificates citing air pollution as the cause of death even if none exist today .

I know a lad who was sent to prison when he was 18 for being gay , he was sent for his own good of course or at least that's what the extremists would tell you .

That's quite a bold accusation Shayne, can you actually prove I'm lying? If not you should to post an apology

the EU buying forged death certificates? if you spent a little time reading the link you'd realise that World Health Authority information not EU

 

[Shayne]

please do hold your breathe while you wait .

 

[MarkW]

Pretty much what I expected, can't back up your statements, you posted alleging I lied which I haven't neither can you prove it

I do find it sad when people throw stones just to try to win what they see as an arguement

 

[Rob Cowell]

I think this is a poor show. We can strongly disagree without losing our British pride in our history of civility and reasoned debate. Let's all take a deep breathe and agree on something for a moment.

 

[MarkW]

Well said Rob

 

[Dave2000]

I think this is a poor show. We can strongly disagree without losing our British pride in our history of civility and reasoned debate. Let's all take a deep breathe and agree on something for a moment.

View attachment 25399

So you think posting a picture of a Land Rover will diffuse the situation? I see, it is a distraction right, before I start swearing at you take the picture down now!

Rob, that is no way PC, or should that be LC?

regards

Dave

 

[chapel gate]

completely agree. at heart im very proud of my country. its history, its achievements, its people. its country side, its architecture, but you know what, for the first time in my life im actually thinking all of this really is in the past. if steel production ceases in this country we really are a complete and utter farce. Belgium has its own steel industry ffs! steel production if nothing else is of strategic importance, the 5th largest economy in the world cant produce its own steel?!

is there any point any more? let the left have there way and flood the country with immigrants, let them destroy all of our institutions and erode all that makes up the very fabric of this country. let the republicans dissolve the monarchy. let the property developers build all over the countryside. lets sell off the last remaining great brands, even the successful ones get sold off. lets keep spending millions on scumbags with ten kids so they can get pissed every day and have sky tv. lets keep spending millions in foreign aid while ex soldiers sleep on the street. I could go on and on and on and..... whats the point? I don't stay here for the weather..

Well i just have to grasp the nettle i suppose

Yes we've done lots of great things for the world and by and large our people are like much of the rest of the planet jolly nice folk, but come on... pop of the rose tinted specs for a while.
We invented the concentration camp, We starved millions of Irish to death during the potato "FAMINE", We machine gunned unarmed people from as far apart as Calcutta to Northern Ireland, We armed and trained the Khmer rouge and taught them how to lay mines (that worked out really well for Cambodians) We supported Saddam Hussein, Augusto Pinochet and "Colonel" Gadaffi (weeks before he was overthrown the SAS were training his bodyguards).
We pour milllions of pounds of money into an arms manufacuring industry that bribes Saudi Arabia to buy our weapons, yet its beheaded 80 people so far this year including children and the mentally ill, as well as political dissidents (which basically means anyone who steps out of line) We supplied jet fighters to Suharto at the same time Indonesia was commiting genocide in East Timor (Australia was in on that one too). We (our government) was complict in the murder of hundreds of thousands of Iraqi civillians because we didn't get satisfactory proof that they disposed of the chemical weapons we supplied them with the week before ??!!!
As for architechture. I love a flying butress on a Norman church as much as the next man (probably more TBH) but i do realise they're French, I love the countryside of Yorkshire and Cumbria and the Highlands and Broads or whatever but i also realise that only 2% of the UK is developed so we are far from overcrowded. I realise the Tunnels of the London underground were dug by Irish navvies who lived in squallor, I know the Indians and Pakistanis worked the mills of the Midlands like i know the Poles are working in the hotels and factories today.
As for soldiers off the streets it was founded by BNP members so thats how riteous they are. Living on the streets is marginally better than some of the squalid married quarters for serving soldiers at Catterick Garrison, Cause our leaders love our forces ... WHEN THEY'RE DEAD.
Cos ambling upto the cenotaph for a photo opportunity once a year is cheaper than investing in medical help and counselling for the poor sods with PTSD who actually have to go and do the dirty work, so that your oil company pals can make sure all those shares and investments turn a profit.
Sucessive governments are a disgrace, they still havent paid out the veterans who were in the bomb tests of the 50's. "Dont look at the flash lads but you can look at the mushroom cloud"

If anyone has destroyed our institutions it's US (or at least our elected leaders) Not some fella from Poland, Pakistan or anywhere else. The only "Europeans" worth having their purse strings tightened are at SW1A 1AA.

err, I certainly don't wear rose tinted specs. im not going to counter every single point you have made in your post, for every plus a negative can be found, taking events from the 1800s for example and seeing them out of context through the eyes of someone living in the 21st century a lot of things will seem pretty brutal. Britain was doing nothing the dutch, the French ,Belgium, the Spanish etc wanted to do or were doing. its just that we happened to do it better..

I mentioned before on this thread that the left love beating themselves up over britains imperial past. most countrys have a past containing brutal events.

although you don't agree I think you can see why I chose to live in this country. I have to ask why do you chose to live here when you have nothing but disdain for the place?

 

[chapel gate]

Like me, I know you are very proud of the UK's history and achievements. Do you not see this as a continuation of the civilising influences of what was once the Empire? We've always sought to improve the lives of others around the world haven't we?

I do though think it's easy to argue that the Department for International Development has inefficiencies that should be addressed with regards to these aims.

One thing we do know is that their budget will remain exactly the same relative to GDP after the referendum.

rob, for some reason I don't think you mean what you say in the opening line of your post..

to answer your question, no, I don't think we should be spending 11 billion pounds a year overseas when a lot of people in this country are struggling, the infrastructure is on its arse, cuts are being made left right and centre and an entire industry is on the verge of collapse...