eu in or out poll

[Rob Cowell]

rob, for some reason I don't think you mean what you say in the opening line of your post..

I understand that we differ in our views on foreign aid. And we may well have different views on the achievements of the UK, but I've read British history and in particular colonial history for as long as I can remember. As soon as I could afford to I travelled to central asia because I grew up idolising, albeit romantically, the players of the great game. Alexander "Bukhara" Burns, Francis Younghusband, Charles "Chinese" Gordon, et al. I had a fascination with British imperialist machinations in Africa. The desire to link South Africa to Egypt with a pink strip. I've hitch hiked through Egypt to Wadi Haifa, and taken the ferry and train to Khartoum so I could imagine the defeat of Gordon and the relief expedition of Wolseley. I've experienced, and been welcomed by many people in what we would certainly describe as suffering in extreme poverty, although probably not as impoverished as many. I'm not suggesting this makes me better qualified to judge British expansionist achievements better than anyone else. I know about many ungalant and regretable actions taken under the banner of British ambitions, but I also judge other actions in the context of the period in which they occured.

I will not concede I don't have pride in the galantry and forbearance of Britons from history. There are of course many other, probably easier to defend achievements, many of which I am probably unaware. Rant over.

 

[chapel gate]

I understand that we differ in our views on foreign aid. And we may well have different views on the achievements of the UK, but I've read British history and in particular colonial history for as long as I can remember. As soon as I could afford to I travelled to central asia because I grew up idolising, albeit romantically, the players of the great game. Alexander "Bukhara" Burns, Francis Younghusband, Charles "Chinese" Gordon, et al. I had a fascination with British imperialist machinations in Africa. The desire to link South Africa to Egypt with a pink strip. I've hitch hiked through Egypt to Wadi Haifa, and taken the ferry and train to Khartoum so I could imagine the defeat of Gordon and the relief expedition of Wolseley. I've experienced, and been welcomed by many people in what we would certainly describe as suffering in extreme poverty, although probably not as impoverished as many. I'm not suggesting this makes me better qualified to judge British expansionist achievements better than anyone else. I know about many ungalant and regretable actions taken under the banner of British ambitions, but I also judge other actions in the context of the period in which they occured.

I will not concede I don't have pride in the galantry and forbearance of Britons from history. There are of course many other, probably easier to defend achievements, many of which I am probably unaware. Rant over.

I will happily stand corrected

and respect for this;

"I know about many ungalant and regretable actions taken under the banner of British ambitions, but I also judge other actions in the context of the period in which they occured."

I found "the great game" by peter hopkirk a great read.

 

[Rob Cowell]

I knew we'd agree on something eventually. I think it was Trespassers on the Roof of the World that got me started. I was a bit obsessed with the Great Game book to the extent of trawling bookshops for some of the titles in the bibliography. Very few of which I found, so I headed for Samarkand instead; actually a bit of a let down after the Soviets had dumped their idea of architecture there. I'm also a big fan of Thomas Pakenham's books on the Empire, the Raj, the Boer War and African colonialism.

 

[Paddler Ed]

(snip) I don't think we should be spending 11 billion pounds a year overseas when a lot of people in this country are struggling, the infrastructure is on its arse, cuts are being made left right and centre and an entire industry is on the verge of collapse...

This is one of those double edged swords - if we cut overseas aid then there is less to keep people there and not here (where ever here is) but people argue that they want to look after their own first, which makes the place look more tempting...

An interesting outcome here in Aus was when Abbott butchered the AUSAid budget, and increased the Pacific worker seasonal visa numbers - the money went directly to those who wanted it, and instead of sitdown moeny (the Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islanders name for the dole) they got money for working, and restored pride in themselves.

 

[hopeless wanderer]

I aren't beating myself or anyone up about it and you're right everyone was at it at the time, The most disturbing thing is that we are still at it right now, albeit a little less effectively than we did back then.
I don't live here anymore, like a lot of the correspondents I live overseas. I actually share your frustrations about "scumbags with ten kids drinking and watching sky TV", I'm far from being a leftie on most topics.
I'll take one point from the original post, homelessness and a lack of social housing for people in the UK.
The right to buy scheme took swathes of social housing that was built using taxpayers money and transferred it into private ownership. I've chosen this one topic because the current right to buy scheme is estimated to cost 12 Billion pounds which is roughly our overseas development budget. (It will of course be over budget)
http://www.housing.org.uk/blog/right-to-buy-extension-estimated-to-cost-12-billion/
Now during the original scheme what happened was houses were taken out of the system and new housing wasn't built, This affected social housing more than any other type of housing although houses are built they are unaffordable for even teachers, policemen, nurses etc never mind those on low incomes. What happened to the houses ? Well in the short term the person who sold got a lump of cash that they inevitably squandered, but what of the house ?? We can see what happened to 40 of them in this article https://tompride.wordpress.com/2015...ousing-minister-now-owns-40-ex-council-homes/
So the easily shouted headline of "there isn't enough room" or "coming over here and taking our houses" just doesn't have any truth in it. Every single argument about Europe is diverted to the issues related to the movement of people by the media and do you wonder why ?? It's a magician's trick, everyone is transfixed on the hankerchief being waved and no one sees the hand going into the pocket ... Your pocket.

 

[Pat]

I stand by what I have written.I have Maori relations who have done quite well for themselves and good on them.
But The Treaty of Waitangi has been misread by the courts and the best thing that could happen is to rip it up and burn it
as it has raised the expectations of people with some Maori blood in their veins and they expect to be given everything.
I was well known in public life and stated my position loud and clear,unfortunately those of the liberal left have single handedly,helped destroy what were once fine people.There are luckily some dam good hard working folks with Maori blood but remember with the good government they got from the British,they stopped eating each other.There are according to
records no people who could be classed as pure Maori.
They are attempting to write the Morioris the first inhabitants out of the history books because it is not a fit with the liberals.

 

[Rob Cowell]

26,911 words in EU regulations on the sale of cabbages. Entertaining piece on how one particular myth around EU bureaucracy came about on More or Less this week. http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b074zy97. First 10 minutes.

 

[hopeless wanderer]

I stand by what I have written.I have Maori relations who have done quite well for themselves and good on them.
But The Treaty of Waitangi has been misread by the courts and the best thing that could happen is to rip it up and burn it
as it has raised the expectations of people with some Maori blood in their veins and they expect to be given everything.
I was well known in public life and stated my position loud and clear,unfortunately those of the liberal left have single handedly,helped destroy what were once fine people.There are luckily some dam good hard working folks with Maori blood but remember with the good government they got from the British,they stopped eating each other.There are according to
records no people who could be classed as pure Maori.


They are attempting to write the Morioris the first inhabitants out of the history books because it is not a fit with the liberals.

You actually made me laugh with that one Pat Yep the Morioris got eaten by the Maori apparently
It's a good point you make there is no such thing as pure Maori, sadly when you have entrenched ides of identity it's deemed offensive to suggest that sort of thing. It's not a reaction reserved to the Maori or the "left" either.
If you try telling someone there is no such thing as English you are met with much the same response, But if you look at the settlement of the British Isles it's much the same as New Zealand only more so.
The North Africans settled in Ireland centuries ago it's likely that when the Celts landed a couple of thousand years ago Ireland was already inhabited by them. So who does Ireland belong to ? who are the settlers and who are the indigenous people ?
The Angles landed in England and the existing inhabitants were pushed out, The earlier Pagan faiths were supressed and a new faith brought from the Middle East began to dominate Britain sometimes forcibly, Then you have the reformation and it all changes again??!
If you look at it St George is the wrong patron saint it should be St Edmund, The red cross is the wrong flag, It's Phoenecian and it replaced the white dragon.
Anti single currency types who hang on to the pound i find especially funny because its a European unit from the Latin "Libra Pondo" for a pound of silver hence the term LB. I travel a lot and Italians are no less Italian for the Euro and the French are No less French
For me Europe is a triumph, it obviously has its teething troubles but lets face it century ago your ancestors took probably 4 months to get to their new home, in ten days ill fly from Dubai to Auckland in 17 and a half hours without stopping .
Movement of people was reserved for the rich, you'd probably be born, live your whole life and die without ever seeing London and thats just if you lived in Leeds. Now we can criss cross the planet in hours.
People are going to move around it's only natural so we should make it easier to share wealth and skills and the reawrds too.

 

[Rob Cowell]

For me Europe is a triumph, it obviously has its teething troubles but lets face it century ago your ancestors took probably 4 months to get to their new home, in ten days ill fly from Dubai to Auckland in 17 and a half hours without stopping .
Movement of people was reserved for the rich, you'd probably be born, live your whole life and die without ever seeing London and thats just if you lived in Leeds. Now we can criss cross the planet in hours.
People are going to move around it's only natural so we should make it easier to share wealth and skills and the reawrds too.

I concur with this. We should be proud of the achievements of our forefathers taken in context. We shouldn't think everything was wonderful, and the sentiment of the day was often to condemn actions that took place on the say so of individuals who were allowed autonomy through poor communications. Home support for the Boer war was strongly diminished by news of the concentration camps for example.

I'd like to consider what my great-grand-children might be proud of in the context of today's world.

 

[MarkW]

26,911 words in EU regulations on the sale of cabbages. Entertaining piece on how one particular myth around EU bureaucracy came about on More or Less this week. http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b074zy97. First 10 minutes.

Cracking really demonstrates how people will blindly believe something because a media outlet says its fact. A lot of people will vote in or out purely based on what the media has told them rather that extracting the fact from the bullshit

 

[Shayne]

http://www.spiked-online.com/newsit...n-mourning-personal-choice/18178#.VwAWw_krLIU

 

[Crispin]

I've been enjoying this thread. From a "no comment, just in/out" requirement to 16 pages of debate. Brilliant.

As time has passed I find myself leaning the other way now (only in this topic - I still play a straight game in other walks of life).

I do find this latest find amusing:

http://www.hitc.com/en-gb/2016/04/0...xpayer-funded-publicity-blitz-pushes-case-to/

The in-campaign needs to come up with positive reasons for staying and not the continued dooms-day actions if we did leave.

 

[Chas]

I can just imagine Camerons reaction if Boris did the same but then Boris doesn't have all that tax payers money to play with.

 

[Crispin]

I was listening to an interview on Radio 4 earlier about this. The chap was quick to defend "not all of the nine million went onto a leaflet. Roughly one-third of the cost is for a website". This made me laugh with anger. I am in that industry. I could knock together something which has some basic information on overnight and charge you only 2.5 mill. A big saving for the tax-man.

Really, 3 mill for a f-ing website with some nice pictures on. I'm not one for penny-pinching but waste is waste. Pretty sure you could use the 3 mill for some schools (how to build websites??) or nurses / policemen etc etc.

Protest vote - Cameron says he will leave if he loses the election



#GrumpyIDidnotgetTheTender

 

[frank rabbets]

I don't think the average man in the street making up 99% of the population will notice any difference if we leave the EU.

 

[Rob Cowell]

I was listening to an interview on Radio 4 earlier about this. The chap was quick to defend "not all of the nine million went onto a leaflet. Roughly one-third of the cost is for a website". This made me laugh with anger. I am in that industry. I could knock together something which has some basic information on overnight and charge you only 2.5 mill. A big saving for the tax-man.

Have you ever tried to nail down the jelly that is public sector IT requirements?

 

[Crispin]

Have you ever tried to nail down the jelly that is public sector IT requirements?

Yup, it's insane. Did a stint at a London agency which was funded by Ken Livingston with the aim of improving disadvantaged people's lives. The money that was wasted was insane. The hardware we were told to purchase - ironically by someone who knew not which was the front and the back of a server - was so OTT it made your eyes water. £45k for a SAN to store our music on... We had no use for it other than "you have to spend it"

 

[Dave2000]

I taught IT in the public sector college/uni for a number of years, and watched almost daily as money was spunked up the wall on the poor choices of software and hardware purchases, quite frankly it was horrendous!

regards

Dave

 

[Ben]

I think it would be great if a million + people got the leaflet in the mail and put it straight back in a post box with "return to sender" written on it and no stamp!

 

[Crispin]

I do that with any Royal Mail junk mail that comes through the door.