The people have spoken

[Towpack]

The, “we need another vote” brigade are gathering momentum. We had a leaflet through the letterbox today pointing to an online petition for just that.

 

[moggy1968]

Despite Trump trying to fubar everything, there is some interesting stuff coming out across the pond;

https://www.foreign.senate.gov/imo/media/doc/FinalRR.pdf

Skip straight to page 153 onwards for the conclusions..........though there is a section (page 116) specific to the UK.

Seems more and more that, rather than the people, it's actually Putin that has spoken and apparently, he's the one taking back control!

It would be a dangerous thing to underestimate Putin, he's a canny bastard

 

[Shayne]

267 Orysia Lutsevych, Agents of the Russian World: Proxy Groups in the Contested
Neighbourhood, Chatham House, at 10 (Apr. 2016).
Chapter 4: Weaponization of Civil Society,
Ideology, Culture, Crime, and Energy
Pushing fake news stories with Internet trolls and slickly produced
infotainment has proved an effective tool for promoting the
Russian government’s objectives in Europe, and one it can deploy
from a distance. But the Kremlin also benefits from having ideological
boots on the ground. The Soviets supposedly referred to extreme
left activists and politicians in the West as ‘‘useful idiots’’—
people who the former Soviet Union could count on to agitate
against its democratic enemies. Today, the Kremlin applies a far
less restrictive ideological filter to its useful idiots, and has also
embraced and cultivated a menagerie of right wing, nationalist
groups in Europe and further abroad.
These agents of influence abroad can be separated into three distinct
tiers, according to an April 2016 study by Chatham House, a
UK think tank:
1. Major state federal agencies, large state-affiliated grant-making
foundations, and private charities linked to Russian
oligarchs;
2. Trusted implementing partners and local associates like
youth groups, think tanks, associations of compatriots, veterans’
groups, and smaller foundations that are funded by
the state foundations, presidential grants, or large companies
loyal to the Kremlin; and
3. Groups that share the Kremlin’s agenda and regional vision
but operate outside of official cooperation channels—these
groups often promote an ‘‘ultra-radical and neo-imperial vocabulary’’
and run youth paramilitary camps.267
THE ROLE OF STATE FOUNDATIONS, GONGOS, NGOS, AND THINK TANKS
The Kremlin funds, directly or indirectly, a number of government-
organized non-governmental organizations (GONGOs), nongovernmental
organizations (NGOs), and think tanks throughout
Russia and Europe. These groups carry out a number of functions,
from disseminating pro-Kremlin views to seeking to influence elections
abroad.
Following a series of ‘‘color revolutions’’ in former Soviet Union
republics like Ukraine and Kyrgyzstan, in 2006 the Russian government
established the World Coordination Council of Russian
Compatriots, which is responsible for coordinating the activities of ................


Page 47 got me wondering why , had i been given the opportunity at any time during the past 20 to 25 years I would have voted out and for at least 10 of those years i'd never even seen internet , a newspaper was something to read while i drank off a hangover in the pub and tv news was a nuisance when i would rather listen to the jukebox .

 

[Chris]

Watched an interesting debate on lunchtime telly today. Some documentary maker has tracked down the guilty, sorry I mean relevant participants who mastered the whole thing back in the day and interviewed them. Most of the big names in there. All of whom (with the exception of Cameroon) are still around.

It seems on balance that the decision to have a referendum was taken not without considerable debate. There was talk about what would happen if they won or lost which I found intriguing terminology. Clear confirmation that they were for a remain position. But what they agreed was that it had come to the point where the British public wanted something to change re the EU. There was a general unrest. But as one MP put it, the whole EU debate was on his constituent's list at number 11 with the state of the UK's roads at number 1.

I'm going to watch it when it airs tonight. Very clearly from the clips, they did not expect a leave vote but rather hoped the fact that there was one would simply quell the unrest. Where it really went wrong is in how it was framed. People get cross when it's said that they didn't know what they were voting for. Well I agree actually. People knew WHY they were voting either way but they didn't know what they were going to get. No one did, but really interestingly, those involved at the time later said that they knew it would be a right f*** up if the vote went to the leave campaign. Shame they didn't put a bit more effort in at the time then isn't it.

 

[Shayne]

And yet more than two years later i still haven't heard a simple blase blunt appealing claim from the remain camp in answer to the pro Brexit bus

Surely the Remain camp with their superior intelligence can come up with some sort of positive message about EU membership - "straight banana's are better" might work

 

[flint]

Wonder where the brexit bus was made ? It lived on to become this (same bus):

 

[Chas]

For more than a decade the EU Commission have been proposing that "Smart Borders" should be introduced across all of the EU's internal and external borders to facilitate maximum speed at minimum cost with minimal delays, only Now do They, Barnier, Varadkhar, and May not like the idea for Ireland.
.

 

[moggy1968]

For more than a decade the EU Commission have been proposing that "Smart Borders" should be introduced across all of the EU's internal and external borders to facilitate maximum speed at minimum cost with minimal delays, only Now do They, Barnier, Varadkhar, and May not like the idea for Ireland.
.

View attachment 153703

The Ireland issue is not insurmountable, the E.U. are just making it so so they can use it as a lever. When it all goes tits it’s the E.U. that will have blood on their hands.

 

[Rob Cowell]

Smart border proposals are for people not goods. The Ireland issue is around customs controls on goods.

https://ec.europa.eu/home-affairs/s...posal_entryexit_system_borders_package_en.pdf

 

[Shayne]

Wonder where the brexit bus was made ? It lived on to become this (same bus):

Aye the bus was made in Germany and sold to Britain at a profit so it could ferry minimum wage British workers to the jobs that profit some other country , very inspirational .

As for the backstop nobody in Great Britain or Ireland wants a wall so if a wall is to be built let them Europeans with an Irish accent argue about it with their masters .

 

[flint]

Not a worker bus that one, more like a tourist bus for distance work, taking people for their holidays in......Europe.
I don't think anyone in Ireland wants a wall, but policing a hard border would be very difficult. There's quite a good story from before EU days. An Ulster policeman had his suspicions about an old boy who cycled across the border regularly. He stopped and searched him many times, but never found anything. After the old boy died, the policeman was talking to someone about him, saying that he was sure he was smuggling something, the person replied "sure he was, bicycles".

 

[cmcmill01]

The one place I come to get anyway from all the Brexit crap, forum admin please close and delete this topic, go on please!!!

 

[moggy1968]

The one place I come to get anyway from all the Brexit crap, forum admin please close and delete this topic, go on please!!!

Then why did you look in the post!!!

 

[cmcmill01]

Then why did you look in the post!!!

Thought it was going to say “and confirmed the petrol 80 is the best Landcruiser money can buy” !!!

 

[moggy1968]

Thought it was going to say “and confirmed the petrol 80 is the best Landcruiser money can buy” !!!

Well clearly it wouldn’t because the 2h 60 is!!

 

[grantw]

I came across this today ... i'm surprised at the date and me only just seeing it now.

From https://www.thelondoneconomic.com/news/vote-leave-director-admits-won-lied-public/08/02/

There is the admission that the NHS wouldn’t really take back our £350 million EU fee, and that immigration wouldn’t really be capped, and that standards of living wouldn’t really change if we left the EU. All of which are matters that the general public voted on, and all are incorrect.

And so to the damning paragraph that outs the Leave Campaign for what it was:

"Pundits and MPs kept saying ‘why isn’t Leave arguing about the economy and living standards’. They did not realise that for millions of people, £350m/NHS was about the economy and living standards – that’s why it was so effective. It was clearly the most effective argument not only with the crucial swing fifth but with almost every demographic. Even with UKIP voters it was level-pegging with immigration. Would we have won without immigration? No. Would we have won without £350m/NHS? All our research and the close result strongly suggests No. Would we have won by spending our time talking about trade and the Single Market? No way."

To casually admit that the NHS swung the vote is an admission that the Leave campaign won because they lied to the public, and few tweets better sum up the state that that leaves the rest of us in than this:

 

[moggy1968]

The only truth about politics is that politicians lie. There was and is plenty of missleading bullshit from both sides.
I never took the bus slogan as a promise that the 350ion would go to the nhs, more as a suggestion that the £350million could be better used elsewhere.
If, as the article states, immigration and living standards are going to be unchanged by leaving doesn’t that rather undermine some of remains fundamental arguments?

 

[grantw]

My only purpose of posting that was to show that the director of the leave campaign believes the leave vote only won through a lie.

 

[Shayne]

I'd say it only goes to show that even the Director of the leave campaign underestimated how many have always disliked the very concept of the EU . Too long ago to remember i was reading a newspapers article , Thatcher says no to adopting the euro or something like that , and i explained to a friend that its the third world war being fought and won with ink instead of bullets , and we are on the side that will lose .

Are you saying the immediate Armageddon , floods , famine , disaster , holocaust , plague , starvation that the Remain camp said would happen in 2016 if we dared vote leave actually happened am i dead , is this heaven or hell , is it a matrix , maybe i'm just dreaming and i will wake up to the nightmare reality of Remainer's fact based predictions

 

[moggy1968]

I'd say it only goes to show that even the Director of the leave campaign underestimated how many have always disliked the very concept of the EU . Too long ago to remember i was reading a newspapers article , Thatcher says no to adopting the euro or something like that , and i explained to a friend that its the third world war being fought and won with ink instead of bullets , and we are on the side that will lose .

Are you saying the immediate Armageddon , floods , famine , disaster , holocaust , plague , starvation that the Remain camp said would happen in 2016 if we dared vote leave actually happened am i dead , is this heaven or hell , is it a matrix , maybe i'm just dreaming and i will wake up to the nightmare reality of Remainer's fact based predictions

No sign that everyone will be booted out of Europe either. Or that we will all need a visa. Or that no one will be able to work or study in Europe! The nhs hasn’t ground to a halt yet.