The people have spoken

goodoldboy Nov 28, 2018

  1. chadr

    chadr Well-Known Member I am in england

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    Back to "open borders" - my point (that admittedly I didn't explicitly state) was that, if we go no-deal, we will be on WTO rules from 30th March - we will not have any trade agreements with ANYONE. I think we are all, at least, agreed on that.

    Under WTO rules , we cannot give preferential treatment to anyone if not in a trade deal. So if we were to let EU stuff go through our borders unchecked, then we need to let EVERYTHING go through unchecked. Otherwise we are in breach of WTO rules.

    Happy to be corrected, if I have misunderstood or misrepresented anything. :thumbup:
     
    Mark_S likes this.
  2. moggy1968

    moggy1968 Well-Known Member

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    I didn’t say the eu was to blame for the UKs decision to leave (although indirectly it could be argued that they are). If they choose to require IDPs then clearly that is there decision or the individual countries decision, because, as I have said, it isn’t necessary if you have a photo card license which meets the requirements of the treaty (which we didn’t have prior to 1973 incidentally).
    I should clarify that as the EU chooses to consider itself the representative and legislator for all its member states I tend to talk about the eu even when perhaps technically I should be saying the EU states. Apologies if that’s confusing.
    TBH having an idp is nothing more than a minor inconvenience, it will just be a bit annoying if for political reasons they decide to invoke something that really isn’t needed.
     
  3. Shayne

    Shayne Well-Known Member Guru

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    "I've been wondering what that special place in hell looks like, for those who promoted #Brexit, without even a sketch of a plan how to carry it out safely.

    — Donald Tusk (@eucopresident) February 6, 2019"

    No doubt in your mind Tusk it looks like Auschwitz 1940 - 1945 , wouldn't that be convenient tool in the EU vision of totalitarianism utopia .
     
  4. Bob

    Bob Well-Known Member Supporter I am in ireland

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    Poor choice of words from Tusk, and horrendous timing to be fair.. his underlying point has some validity though...

    There was no plan.. the plan wasn't a cunning plan, as cunning as a fox who studied how to come up with a cunning plan and the Oxford University of cunning planning... It was not a plan...

    It was a grand scheme, that gained traction and support from a lot of people who liked the scheme... But then when the scheme was suddenly accepted, those without a plan said... Oops... and left... Mr. Farage for example.

    Then came the question from the others.. what's the plan so? If the actual practical ramifications of Brexit were thought through, explained to the people along with a plan to deal with them, then Brexit may not have become the clusterfudge it is...
     
    chadr and goodoldboy like this.
  5. chapel gate

    chapel gate Well-Known Member Supporter Promoted Company I am in england

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    one of the first things I would do is make you deputy leader shane.
    moggy can be defence minister..

    leaving the EU is part of the reset process for me. leaving without a deal is pressing the reset button, pulling the plug out of the socket and slating the whole godforsaken thing in the bin.

    sorry rob, it doesn't wash with me. businessmen threatening to take there business elsewhere to try and influence peoples political persuasion.
    as you know, currency will fluctuate.

    don't tell me, served in Belgium made pewter tankards..
     
    Last edited: Feb 8, 2019
  6. Rob Cowell

    Rob Cowell Well-Known Member I am in wales

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    I think his wording is terrible. But I'd not listen to any hand-wringing about it from anyone who hadn't already condemned Hunt's USSR and Kamall's Nazi comments. Otherwise it just comes across as flakey snow.
     
  7. chadr

    chadr Well-Known Member I am in england

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    Perhaps the choice of words wasn't but the message was certainly on point....he nailed the 2 main issues;
    The first: That the politicians didn't have a clue, or even the first inkling of a clue as to how to actually go about achieving Brexit, mainly because they couldn't agree on what Brexit actually means. They still cant. May and her government went around for 2 years, simply repeating the mantra "Brexit means Brexit, Leave means Leave", without ever actually thinking or asking Parliament, what that actually meant. And we still haven't answered that question. 17+ million people may have voted "Leave" but they all voted for their own version of Brexit. Add to that mix the fact that political factions on the fringes have become the power brokers; JRM and his ERG cronies in the Tory party plus Arlene Foster and the DUP are the ones calling the shots, and we have a situation where we simply cannot get consensus.

    The second issue and the one that frustrates me the most, is that there is no political force for Remain, neither has it any effective leadership. Nearly 1/2 the votes were for Remain - where is their voice? That clown Corbyn has been worse than useless, as most people knew he probably would be - what a great opportunity it would have been to grow a pair and actually LEAD!


    It'll certainly be pulling the plug on the economy, that's a given. I'm not quite sure that leaving the EU with no deal and "resetting" ourselves back to WTO rules is what anyone had in mind during the referendum. In fact I can find umpteen media clips and articles where the main Leave protagonists - Farage, Johnson, Gove, Hannan, Fox, Davis, Leadsom et al completely discount a no-deal scenario, as almost unthinkable, in the run-up to the referendum.

    When Gove said "we've had enough of experts", I don't think many people realised that it was the ushering in of a new age - where facts, evidence and logic are worthless and brushed aside.

    Brexit is beyond that now, it's a belief, an ideology. It's the new sky-fairy.
     
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  8. chapel gate

    chapel gate Well-Known Member Supporter Promoted Company I am in england

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    for me its far from a given, but it does depend on how the government/business respond to the new challenges. we need investment and support for industry and manufacturing. investment in sciences and new technologies.
    investment in proper apprenticeships for young people where theres a skilled, well payed job at the end of it that they are proud to do, rather than sending everyone to uni thinking that if you have a degree in shoe lace tying it makes you more employable..
    there absolutely no reason for career benefit claimers to sit at home drinking tenants super and beating the mrs up when theres litter to be picked up, graffiti cleaned off walls, railings to be painted, fruit to be picked etc etc. the same applies to the prison population.
    sometimes a big kick up the arse is required.
    that big kick up the arse is Brexit.
    the problem with these experts is they all have a different opinion.

    it'll all self level in the end.
     
    moggy1968 likes this.
  9. Shayne

    Shayne Well-Known Member Guru

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    WTO is the default position but as a free country we can negotiate with America , Asia , the EU , anywhere for a mutually beneficial trade deal .

    To hit the reset button risks a global economic crash , if that don't level the playing field and stop the blame game then nothing will . Only when all are on the same page looking for solutions will solutions be found . So hit the damn button and be damned with the fantasy consequences .
     
    chapel gate likes this.
  10. moggy1968

    moggy1968 Well-Known Member

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    https://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money...riving-licences-not-recognised-EU-Brexit.html
    Please evidence that all but 27 countries require and IDP
    In your own post you stated: '72 countries have ratified the 1968 convention, and 96 have ratified the 1949 Convention. '
    So by your own admission, more than 27 countries have signed up to the 2 conventions. As I previously said, part of that convention is that if the license meets the requirement of the convention no IDP is required. I believe the UK license meets those requirements, therefore no IDP should be required.
    Anyways, got both mine today
     
    Last edited: Feb 7, 2019
  11. Paddler Ed

    Paddler Ed Well-Known Member I am in australia

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    I'm going to pull your post apart, and hopefully not twist your intentions:
    No EU funding to do that now... there was a good amount of EU funding that came in for development of new industrial centres, especially when looking at the redevelopment of former heavy industrial areas.

    No access to collaborative EU research projects for universities, suspect it'll be harder to access things like CERN and the ESA.

    Less international engagement as the advantage of engaging with an EU university or research body has disappeared.

    Investment will come if there is a competitive advantage; the reason that things have moved overseas is that:
    1) Labour is cheaper
    2) Incentives have been made available through taxes and inducements, especially in the EU and developing countries.

    Now, this presents an interesting problem... the EU bogie man that everyone bemoans is actually one of the ways that this playing field could be levelled. The Euro removes the currency fluctuation - there is less advantage in government policy changes in terms of the currency fluctuations - and the main thing that needs to be implemented is the equivalent tax structure across the Euro zone; this has been done in part with the equal application of VAT across the EU states, but the next stage is the same level of taxes at all levels. The final stage is then the equalisation of wages - ie everyone has the same wages. This would remove the competitive advantage of places like the Czech Republic, Poland etc where wages are lower than the Western member countries.

    So, from that, for the UK to attract industry back, they need to have something that is appealing... lower tax rates? See my next part... Lower wages? How low would you go to attract industry? 50% less than you are on now? 75% less than you are on now? That would put the UK approaching level with China...

    Trade deals are also part of that attraction, and not having a trade deal with the EU other than WTO is not going to be appealing for anyone - that's no better than many other countries, and in some cases worse. Without that the UK will not be competitive in the international space.

    There has been no incentive for investment in apprentices, because it has been cheaper to have international migration that allows skilled migration. The pay thing comes back to that competitive advantage; the destruction of trade unions has had some part in that.

    If we are having investment in science and technology, the relationship with university becomes quite interesting; the transfer of the learnt knowledge at university, based on the research that is undertaken there is one of the drivers for regional growth; without that knowledge transfer, and a reliance on "dropped in" technology businesses, the economy stagnates and does not grow or develop supporting industries that further develop the economy in the area; this is one of the reasons why South Wales struggled as it had industries dropped in, but no supporting education to build new knowledge based economies.

    They need to be paid from somewhere, and local government don't have the budgets to do that. Someone's got to pay for it, and there just isn't the tax income to do it because the economy has become so global - the purchasing of things from the ilk of Amazon and eBay means that the revenue (and associated taxes) flow off shore via tax havens. Stop buying things via those avenues, buy things locally and the money will go round the economy a bit more and make a difference in the local area.

    Yep, it seems like it's going to self-level like a bucket of sh!t... just before it tips over you.
     
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  12. moggy1968

    moggy1968 Well-Known Member

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    I think the Government didn't have a plan because they didn't expect a leave vote, they called the nations bluff and totally misjudged the national feeling on the matter, demonstrating just how out of touch they are.
    The Tusk comments come from a bullying and aggressive man in a bullying and aggressive organisation.
    Of course he is pro Europe, both his country and him have benefited massively over the last 10 years or so from the EU, paid for by the likes of the UK. Of course he doesn't want the gravy train to end.

    I see that now the EU is directly threatening Southern Ireland over the border issue. I thought this was an interesting statement from German MEP Elmar Brock. It rather confirms what many think
    "The defence of the internal market is the basis of our economic success in Germany. If we destroy the Single Market, the EU is finished."
     
  13. moggy1968

    moggy1968 Well-Known Member

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    In 2017 the UK paid the EU £13billion. We received from the EU as funding £4billion, so clearly if we don't have to pay the EU, we will have more to fund our own projects. We do not need the EU to fund us.

    Science and R&D are already international. My mate, who is a nuclear physicist has worked extensively in the EU, but also in America and Australia. If you have the skills, they will want you.

    The majority of university funding through overseas students comes from outside the EU, the UK is still seen as a very desirable place to get an education.

    VAT is not applied equally across EU states, it ranges from 17% in Luxembourg to27% in Hungary.
    The notion of a single fiscal or monetary policy for countries with vastly differing economies is nonsense, as proved by the massive financial crash in Ireland (much worse than other EU states). They knew their economy was over heating but were powerless to control it because of being locked into the same currency system as the rest of the EU who weren't doing too well at the time.

    If you equalise wages you will generate massive inflationary pressure, it would be economic madness and that suggestion defies all the basic rules of economics.

    There is a massive skills shortage in the Trades because successive Governments have tried to persuade people that a university education is the only education thats worth having. It used to be that only the top 2% went to university, now the majority do, to the extent that a 1st degree isn't worth toilet paper now and jobs like paramedic and Nurse have been turned into degrees which are an entirely unsuitable method of training for a profession such as those.
    In pursuance of the above, funding for the trades was all but scrapped.
    That skills shortage has not been met by immigration and we need to see a serious rethinking of post school training in this country.

    The benefits culture is an economic timebomb. I'm going to make statements here which are generalisations that some may not like, but it's the reality. We have a benefits culture in this country, a whole substrata of society that will spend their entire life on the dole, who don't want to work and don't intend to work, those scrotes, for want of a better term, then usually have multiple scrote kids, who will grow up believing that scrounging on benefits is a legitimate lifestyle choice. They will then go on to have multiple x multiple scrote kids and so the pool of scrotes gets bigger and bigger, and very quickly, possibly within 3-4 generations, we are right in the shit, because there isn't enough money being generated to carry on paying the scrotes.

    Like I said, it's an economic time bomb, that no one wants to talk about because of bullshit political sensitivity.

    It's worth noting by the way that three of the main players in the EU, Germany, France and the UK, also have some of the worst economic growth in the world, with the UK being right down towards the bottom. Of EU countries only Belgium, Italy and Greece are below us.
     
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  14. moggy1968

    moggy1968 Well-Known Member

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    ladies and gentlemen we have another winner!! Another hasbeen politician riding the EU gravytrain!!
    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...onald-Tusk-scathing-insults-vote-Leavers.html

    It is notable that he lucked into becoming prime minister, then presided over a marked economic downturn in his countries economy. He was eventually ousted due to his monumentally shit performance as leader.
    He was blocked from becoming EU president by a UK led coalition, something I am sure he still recalls, and he is an ardent federalist. rather like putting the mad people in charge of the asylum, he is now the EUs chief brexit negotiator!
     
    Last edited: Feb 7, 2019
  15. Shayne

    Shayne Well-Known Member Guru

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    They believe British people will not allow no deal so they want to make no deal seem entirely Britain's responsibility , they assume once calamity strikes our Gov will be back to them begging for membership .

    There is no negotiating with fanatical lunatics - they will reap what they sow .
     
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  16. Rob Cowell

    Rob Cowell Well-Known Member I am in wales

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    Tiresome minutiae alert.

    Lucky Tusk luckily lead his PO party with a 17% vote swing to luckily win the Polish elections. During his tenure GDP per person rose from $11,200 to $14,300, broadly in-line with other Eastern European EU member nations.

    Tusk is the EU Council President. He was never in the running for Commission President, that was Shultz and Juncker. His presidency wasn't opposed by the UK. The UK did try and block Junker's election but couldn't persuade Sweden and the Netherlands to maintain opposition.

    There is no such country as Southern Ireland, at least not since 1922.

    The Irish economic crises was predominantly Irish banks over extending themselves and being found out during a global recession. In the same way UK and US banks caused economic crisis in their nations.

    But of course, that's what they want us to believe.
     
  17. moggy1968

    moggy1968 Well-Known Member

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    :laughing-rolling:I p
    Minutae alert!!
    I presume your referring to my last post, I suggest you read the link. I wasn’t talking about tusk. I was talking about the former Belgian premier who has now waded in with the insults. Please read posts properly before responding. Belgium isn’t part of Eastern Europe last time I checked! Would you like me to post a map?

    ‘Southern Ireland’ (Eire) is a common enough term frequently used when referring to the bit of Ireland that isn’t Northern Ireland. Would you like me to post a map? It might help as I’m sure otherwise mark will ask me for evidence:laughing-rolling:

    Whilst the economic crash was caused by the banks conduct throughout Europe and affected all of Europe the effects were felt much more severely in Ireland due to their runaway economy. They had been trying to slow it down for several years prior to the crash, aware that it was over heating but were unable to do so because of being tied into European monetary and fiscal policies. As anyone interested in politics outside of the rather narrow confines of the last 2 years would know.

    Sorry to piss on your bonfire but your rather weak attempt to counter someone’s argument by picking at ‘minutae’ looks a bit silly and desperate.
     
    Last edited: Feb 7, 2019
  18. Rob Cowell

    Rob Cowell Well-Known Member I am in wales

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    Moggy, I apologise unreservedly, I didn't open the link, I just saw Tusk mentioned in the URL.

    Verhofstadt did of course preside over the marked economic down turn in Belguim, taking their pp GDP from $25,000 all the way down to $48,000 during his premiership. Pretty much a mirror image of what was happening in Germany and the Netherlands at the time. Anyone who manages to get enough people in Belguim to agree they are the right man for the job and then hold that job for nearly 9 years must be working with more than just luck.

    Southern Ireland is indeed incorrectly used by many people.

    And minutiae has an extra i in it. Would you like me to point you to a dictionary? I do agree using the term in a discussion looks silly and desperate. It is a cross I will have to bear.

    I'd love you to post some citations on attempts to steady the Celtic Tiger and the negative effects of EU fiscal policy on that, because I am ignorant of that element. But I suspect you won't. My reading has always been the bulk (but not all) of the growth was driven by corporate taxation policies that encouraged significant foreign investment, something entirely within the remit of the Irish government and a policy at odds with the EU's desire for increased corporate fiscal governance.
     
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  19. moggy1968

    moggy1968 Well-Known Member

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    Apology accepted!
    He lucked into being president through other political issues at the time that damaged the opposition (notable some kind of food crisis or somesuch). he was only able to cling on to it by making various dubious coalitions (I think it was something like a 4 party coalition for his first tenure). He was eventually forced to resign when people got fed up with him. Much like thatcher, who he has been compared to.
    During his first tenure unemployment rose, after falling under the previous leader. During his second term the economic situation continued to deteriorate under inflationary pressures. Economic health is of course to do with much more than just gdp. For example the level of national debt, which is high.
    80% of Belgian trade is within the EU so it’s not difficult to see why they are so EU orientated with much of the EUs administrative functions being conducted there. It has a significant reliance on the EU gravy train for its continued (and now quite healthy) economy.
    He’s good at self promotion and wrestling himself into good positions, you might say good at politics! What he isn’t good at though is leading a country, management or economics.
    I read quite a bit about the Celtic tiger and it’s predicted problems back while it was happening, and before everyone went to Facebook for their ‘facts’ so I don’t know how much info is readily available and tbh I don’t have the time to do much detailed digging.
    If you could post a link to a dictionary I’m sure that would be of enormous help to me when typing on my phone, and for my next book or magazine article!
     
    Last edited: Feb 7, 2019
  20. Bob

    Bob Well-Known Member Supporter I am in ireland

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    No such state as Southern Ireland... if it is used, it’s used in ignorance. It’s the Republic of Ireland, or just Ireland. Nobody here uses the term, not even for regional comparisons.. Ironically enough, the northern most point in Ireland is further north than Northern Ireland.

    A lot of our growth is fed by corporate tax rates and foreign direct investment, and the E.U, while they don’t like it, do not have the power to change it. It also happens that the tax rate is 6.5 percentage points lower than the UK... something the Uk govt. may want to consider after the exit, as Britain’s last advantage for multinationals will then be gone.
     
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