The people have spoken

moggy1968

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No such state as Southern Ireland... if it is used, it’s used in ignorance. It’s the Republic of Ireland, or just Ireland. Nobody here uses the term, not even for regional comparisons.. Ironically enough, the northern most point in Ireland is further north than Northern Ireland.
I think that rather depends on whether you’re talking politically or geographically.:wink: But I shall bow to your wishes and call it the Republic of Ireland if you like :blush:
 

chadr

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Unashamedly plagiarised from elsewhere.....

"As Theresa May says, 'If someone says they want to commit suicide then it's important that they follow through. Under no circumstances should they be given the opportunity to change their minds, even if they don't want to do it any more, we should just get it over with. And what's true for individuals is true for countries'. At least I think I heard her say that, though I may have been reading between the lines."
 

moggy1968

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:grimacing::grimacing: It’s not geographically correct either... and I’m a geography teacher.... ( on lunch at the moment!) but anyway.. potayto potaato


Oops... I shouldn’t mention potatoes...:tonguewink:
Don’t mention the potatoes!!!
And don’t mention going south of the border either!
Please can you send rob a map!:laughing-rolling:
 
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chapel gate

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near, leek staffs.
I'm going to pull your post apart, and hopefully not twist your intentions:


No EU funding to do that now... there was a good amount of EU funding that came in for development of new industrial centres, especially when looking at the redevelopment of former heavy industrial areas.

No access to collaborative EU research projects for universities, suspect it'll be harder to access things like CERN and the ESA.

Less international engagement as the advantage of engaging with an EU university or research body has disappeared.




Investment will come if there is a competitive advantage; the reason that things have moved overseas is that:
1) Labour is cheaper
2) Incentives have been made available through taxes and inducements, especially in the EU and developing countries.

Now, this presents an interesting problem... the EU bogie man that everyone bemoans is actually one of the ways that this playing field could be levelled. The Euro removes the currency fluctuation - there is less advantage in government policy changes in terms of the currency fluctuations - and the main thing that needs to be implemented is the equivalent tax structure across the Euro zone; this has been done in part with the equal application of VAT across the EU states, but the next stage is the same level of taxes at all levels. The final stage is then the equalisation of wages - ie everyone has the same wages. This would remove the competitive advantage of places like the Czech Republic, Poland etc where wages are lower than the Western member countries.

So, from that, for the UK to attract industry back, they need to have something that is appealing... lower tax rates? See my next part... Lower wages? How low would you go to attract industry? 50% less than you are on now? 75% less than you are on now? That would put the UK approaching level with China...

Trade deals are also part of that attraction, and not having a trade deal with the EU other than WTO is not going to be appealing for anyone - that's no better than many other countries, and in some cases worse. Without that the UK will not be competitive in the international space.



There has been no incentive for investment in apprentices, because it has been cheaper to have international migration that allows skilled migration. The pay thing comes back to that competitive advantage; the destruction of trade unions has had some part in that.

If we are having investment in science and technology, the relationship with university becomes quite interesting; the transfer of the learnt knowledge at university, based on the research that is undertaken there is one of the drivers for regional growth; without that knowledge transfer, and a reliance on "dropped in" technology businesses, the economy stagnates and does not grow or develop supporting industries that further develop the economy in the area; this is one of the reasons why South Wales struggled as it had industries dropped in, but no supporting education to build new knowledge based economies.



They need to be paid from somewhere, and local government don't have the budgets to do that. Someone's got to pay for it, and there just isn't the tax income to do it because the economy has become so global - the purchasing of things from the ilk of Amazon and eBay means that the revenue (and associated taxes) flow off shore via tax havens. Stop buying things via those avenues, buy things locally and the money will go round the economy a bit more and make a difference in the local area.



Yep, it seems like it's going to self-level like a bucket of sh!t... just before it tips over you.
no worries.
allow me to reciprocate the gesture.

the UK pays into the EU many more billions than it gets back. the richer members pay in more to prop up the poorer members.
yes, I have seen the "funded by the EU" posters. as you say, normally in poorer ex industrial areas of the UK.

this is propaganda.

scientist in general don't like to be involved in politics. they are interested in science and the good of science. sharing knowledge through peer review. sharing knowledge increases there own knowledge.

we have some pretty good universities in the UK..

on the contrary. investment should come to create a competitive advantage.

this is the fundamental problem with "bottom line business" as I call it. accountants who don't understand the ins and outs of a business. merely looking at figures. sure, a healthy profit needs to be made for obvious reasons. too many profit making british firms have been destroyed by asset strippers and greedy, self serving, short term thinking people.
GKN a recent example.

sure, cheaper labour can be found elsewhere. sack all of your british work force and move production overseas. increase your profit by blah blah %.
wreck a community in the process. put a percentage of the said ex workforce on benefits for the rest of there lives. the rest have to now do a 30 mile commute to there new lower payed job in the next town. they have less free capital to spend and put back into the economy. there are now a greater number of cars on the road increasing congestion and harmful emissions. NHS spending on respiratory diseases increases by 6%. in the mean time the 3 local firms that provided components have gone into liquidation, a percentage of there ex workforce are now on benefits...…
mean while the new cheaper product is being shipped from the other side of the world via bunker fuel. it is made by 13 year olds working 12 hours a day in a country with a very suspect human rights record and a even more suspect environmental policy.

its all good though. the bottom line has increased by 12%...

the apprenticeship. an investment in the youth of the country to not only provide them with a skilled worthwhile job that they have a sense of pride in, on a lot of occasions following in there fathers footsteps, but also to provide industry with the skill set that it requires.
what you say is indeed true. yet more short term thinking and underinvestment. it also creates resentment towards the skilled migration.

regarding local government revenues. I agree to a certain extent, but ridiculous business rates don't help. we chose super markets over local produce and goods from the butcher, greengrocer and ironmonger.
on line retail is here to stay. they should be paying there fair share of revenue. another issue of being dominated by large foreign corporations that the UK government seems afraid of upsetting.

"Yep, it seems like it's going to self-level like a bucket of sh!t... just before it tips over you"

that's your opinion. you are entitled to it.
 
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moggy1968

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Jun 12, 2013
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no worries.
allow me to reciprocate the gesture.

the UK pays into the EU many more billions than it gets back. the richer members pay in more to prop up the poorer members.
yes, I have seen the "funded by the EU" posters. as you say, normally in poorer ex industrial areas of the UK.

this is propaganda.

scientist in general don't like to be involved in politics. they are interested in science and the good of science. sharing knowledge through peer review. sharing knowledge increases there own knowledge.

we have some pretty good universities in the UK..

on the contrary. investment should come to create a competitive advantage.

this is the fundamental problem with "bottom line business" as I call it. accountants who don't understand the ins and outs of a business. merely looking at figures. sure, a healthy profit needs to be made for obvious reasons. too many profit making british firms have been destroyed by asset strippers and greedy, self serving, short term thinking people.
GKN a recent example.

sure, cheaper labour can be found elsewhere. sack all of your british work force and move production overseas. increase your profit by blah blah %.
wreck a community in the process. put a percentage of the said ex workforce on benefits for the rest of there lives. the rest have to now do a 30 mile commute to there new lower payed job in the next town. they have less free capital to spend and put back into the economy. there are now a greater number of cars on the road increasing congestion and harmful emissions. NHS spending on respiratory diseases increases by 6%. in the mean time the 3 local firms that provided components have gone into liquidation, a percentage of there ex workforce are now on benefits...…
mean while the new cheaper product is being shipped from the other side of the world via bunker fuel. it is made by 13 year olds working 12 hours a day in a country with a very suspect human rights record and a even more suspect environmental policy.

its all good though. the bottom line has increased by 12%...

the apprenticeship. an investment in the youth of the country to not only provide them with a skilled worthwhile job that they have a sense of pride in, on a lot of occasions following in there fathers footsteps, but also to provide industry with the skill set that it requires.
what you say is indeed true. yet more short term thinking and underinvestment. it also creates resentment towards the skilled migration.

regarding local government revenues. I agree to a certain extent, but ridiculous business rates don't help. we chose super markets over local produce and goods from the butcher, greengrocer and ironmonger.
on line retail is here to stay. they should be paying there fair share of revenue. another issue of being dominated by large foreign corporations that the UK government seems afraid of upsetting.

"Yep, it seems like it's going to self-level like a bucket of sh!t... just before it tips over you"

that's your opinion. you are entitled to it.
Have a look at my response to the same in the previous page :thumbup:
 

Shayne

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Now, this presents an interesting problem... the EU bogie man that everyone bemoans is actually one of the ways that this playing field could be levelled. The Euro removes the currency fluctuation - there is less advantage in government policy changes in terms of the currency fluctuations - and the main thing that needs to be implemented is the equivalent tax structure across the Euro zone; this has been done in part with the equal application of VAT across the EU states, but the next stage is the same level of taxes at all levels. The final stage is then the equalisation of wages - ie everyone has the same wages. This would remove the competitive advantage of places like the Czech Republic, Poland etc where wages are lower than the Western member countries.
So zero competition within the EU itself , handy that they could then match prices to wages ensuring nobody can afford to take a day off . What next , compulsory euthanasia for the unprofitable people or state enforced steroids to up productivity , without democracy world domination would be so easy wouldn't it , well it would be were it not for cavalier cowboys with Hiroshima and Nagasaki 1945 like capabilities who object to being dictated to by fanatics who's power is entirely self assumed .
 

Shayne

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https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/feb/11/england-brexit-broken-neoliberalism

The guy who can reel of the names of closed-down factories like you might your football team’s greatest all-time , is he in Remainer's eyes , uneducated , racist , xenophobic , whatever else Brexit supporters are repeatedly called - or is he just plain angry .

Perhaps he might be consoled if someone where to give him an address where he could send a letter of complaint . Starting -

To whom it may concern on a galaxy far far away
 

Paddler Ed

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https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/feb/11/england-brexit-broken-neoliberalism

The guy who can reel of the names of closed-down factories like you might your football team’s greatest all-time , is he in Remainer's eyes , uneducated , racist , xenophobic , whatever else Brexit supporters are repeatedly called - or is he just plain angry .

Perhaps he might be consoled if someone where to give him an address where he could send a letter of complaint . Starting -

To whom it may concern on a galaxy far far away
I used to work in local government (Blackpool) until 2010; at that time and after just a few years of Tory austerity you could see the impact it was having. Blackpool was interesting because to the south the Fylde area was quite prosperous, but north of South Pier it was a mixed bag, right the way through to the Fleetwood area.

What would revitalise an area like that? In all honesty, I don't know - the re-emergence of TVR would have been one that would have helped the Bispham area, but the rest of the town had such a high level of depravation (and a very nasty undercurrent, to the extent that there was a child protection/exploitation team permanently based in the police station) and social divide it was always going to be a challenge.

However, at the same time, the decline was such a long running process dating back to the rise of other destinations and the changing nature of destinations that were popular. It also struggled to attract passing trade because of it's location - it wasn't on the way to anywhere really, so it was a terminal destination as such.

Is Brexit going to help avoid a further lurch to the right and even more "free" trade agreements so beloved of the neoliberals? I don't think so; I think it will be closer to the greed is good model...
 

Shayne

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I agree Ed its between a rock and a hard place

its not profitable to buy all the workers new boots and give them a Sunday off each month , so it will never happen - until the workers say they've had enough and so make profit impossible . What are the options then ?

It took a while for it to dawn on me when i spent a weekend drinking in Blackpool last year that every single person i met there including bar staff , tower staff , hotel , cafe owners , shops , staff every one at work had a British accent , i have no idea if it indicates anything but there was something very surreal about the realization ?

Great weekend though i can't imagine a friendlier place .
 

Shayne

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Maybe Carney has the answer to my last question

"Britain could lead the world into a new era of democracy and free trade, using the Brexit revolt against the establishment as a springboard to making the global order more cooperative, accountable and prosperous, according to the Governor of the Bank of England.

The current system of global trade has key flaws including wealth and income inequality, a lack of democracy and trust, and serious financial imbalances, Mark Carney warned on Tuesday."
 

moggy1968

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Maybe Carney has the answer to my last question

"Britain could lead the world into a new era of democracy and free trade, using the Brexit revolt against the establishment as a springboard to making the global order more cooperative, accountable and prosperous, according to the Governor of the Bank of England.

The current system of global trade has key flaws including wealth and income inequality, a lack of democracy and trust, and serious financial imbalances, Mark Carney warned on Tuesday."
It was an interesting statement as he was hardline remain
 

chapel gate

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near, leek staffs.
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/feb/11/england-brexit-broken-neoliberalism

The guy who can reel of the names of closed-down factories like you might your football team’s greatest all-time , is he in Remainer's eyes , uneducated , racist , xenophobic , whatever else Brexit supporters are repeatedly called - or is he just plain angry .

Perhaps he might be consoled if someone where to give him an address where he could send a letter of complaint . Starting -

To whom it may concern on a galaxy far far away
good article until the dog whistle bit...
I live near stoke on trent. I was recently working on the twyfords factory. correction. the factory was in the process of being demolished to make way for shoebox houses. I was working in the offices. twyfords was established in 1849. now the germans own the company. the offices and warehouse were being kept as a storage and distribution centre for the new made in germany and Poland goods. the entire factory workforce had been layed off.
I was speaking to one of the English managers about the wind down operation and I said what a shame it was that yet another household name, 150 year old plus company had gone to the wall. "nah, im getting a golden handshake and early retirement out of it" was the reply.
I also got speaking to one of the new german managers. he was telling me about the new factory in germany. "clay goes in one end and a toilet comes out of the other, without being touched by a human hand"..
 

Towpack

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Twyfords is just another of many and more will follow no doubt. It’s the dreaded three P’s, productivity, performance, prfotability in an attempt to satisfy the “we want everything, we want it cheap and we want it now” lifestyle of most of the Western world. If a bad Brexit means shortages of certain goods and produce then maybe it’ll be a lesson for us all.
 

moggy1968

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It’s time May et al realised the strength of our position. This was a great speech. Shame she’s German, we could do with her as PM!!
 

Bob

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Near 3 years and anyone without prejudice can see no deal is the only option for an improved world - long term
No doubt that no deal is an option, but I'm not sure how negotiating under WTO rules from the beginning is the 'best' option. Add to that the reputation of Westminster has been badly damaged by the whole saga. Negotiating agreements does not seem to be a strong point at the moment.

I kept my Irish hat off for that bit!!

Still no plan for how the UK handles N.I in a no deal scenario
 

moggy1968

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No doubt that no deal is an option, but I'm not sure how negotiating under WTO rules from the beginning is the 'best' option. Add to that the reputation of Westminster has been badly damaged by the whole saga. Negotiating agreements does not seem to be a strong point at the moment.

I kept my Irish hat off for that bit!!

Still no plan for how the UK handles N.I in a no deal scenario

Theresa May, the only person to buy a sofa from dfs at full price!!
 
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