The people have spoken

[moggy1968]

It is a 2 way street mate, all multinationals and banks have record profits made in Romania, and if the romanian and polish nurses would leave tomorrow the UK, your NHS will crumble like a sand castle.
Second point is that Romania in particular for the first 5 years of membership was a net contributor because it lacked capacity to actually receive the development funds. And it is a fact that what ever is built with EU funds it is built by big multinational contractors, so most of the money, except some low salaries payed locally return to West.
So it is mutually beneficial. If you live under the impression that the money are handed out like in charity, it is very wrong, it is all big business.
But the biggest gain in Romania was the fact that because we signed the treaty we were obliged to reform, to reform justice, to have a rule of law, our retard politicians were only stopped from doing what ever they wanted only by the EU and fear they will loose access. Unfortunately they discovered recently that their fear is unjustified and most of the gains we made specially fighting corruption and rule of law are now in danger.
This is why Romania in particular you can safely say it is mostly pro EU, they trust more Bruxelles than our own politicians.

Of course the EU has something to lose if UK leaves, the issue is that EU can very easily pay the price . It is a problem of size, EU even without the UK it is almost 9 times the size of the UK in population, market, budget what ever.
International politics and economy is not like sex, there, size really matter .
I don't like everything about EU, but the alternative is much worse. Only united you can compete with China, US, Russia .
You think alone you make better deals ? Trump stated clearly they will only talk with UK if you let the big pharma in to NHS and open the market for chlorinated chickens and what ever else substandard food they make in the US.
Why would anyone give special special treatment to UK ? it is all business and you need to have something to offer. Right now the top UK product that is the envy of the world and everyone wants a piece of it is that London is the world capital of money laundering.

https://www.theguardian.com/comment...sh-unexplained-wealth-orders-money-laundering

But that will hardly be something to rely on, money laundering does not create a lot of middle class and prosperity.

Romania receives 4x more than it contributes to the eu while 75% of its exports are to the eu so it is hardly surprising they want to be in the eu!
There aren’t a significant number of Romanian, Bulgarian or even polish nurses in the nhs. The largest number of foreign nurses registered with the NMC are Philippino. Last time I checked the Philippines wasn’t in the eu. Being out of the eu does not mean we won’t have foreign nurses, just because you are a nurse from outside the eu doesn’t mean you can’t work in the nhs, although having seen the standard of nursing and healthcare in Bulgaria (I can’t speak for Romania as I haven’t seen it) I would prefer there were some checks made as to their competency levels before being allowed to practice here.
Poland in particular has gained massively in its infrastructure from eu grants. Romania, Poland and Bulgaria have gained massively from joining the eu so that large corporations like Mercedes could move their manufacturing there, giving a huge boost to employment in those countries. You semi to significantly underestimate the effect those infrastructure works have not just on local employment during the works but also in the considerable ecomic benefits that follow, like the polish (and Romanian and Bulgarian) haulage industries I cited above. When I first visited Poland some 14 years ago it was similar tonukraine or Belarus, now its more like Germany. That’s entirely as a result of its benefitting from being in the eu.
Your atent about the UKs contribution is entirely inaccurate. The U.K. contributes more of its gdp per capita than most other countries and in actual financial terms more than the lowest eu contributors. The only thing that you got right is that yes, size does matter and that’s why the Germans are shitting themselves if the U.K. leaves, the U.K. is a major question later in the eu and Germany’s largest export market. I suggest you actually watch the video I posted previously.
Your knowledge of the make up of U.K. exports and foreign trade also seems somewhat inaccurate.

 

[moggy1968]

I think people 60 and upwards are not affected in staying or leaving the EU in anywhere near as much as young people who have their working future still ahead of them , and to many of these older people Nationalism has raised its ugly head , I lived in the UK during the referendum and voted to stay , not for myself but the young working people like my three kids who still have around 30 years working life ahead of them and with small children to bring up . My next door neighbor voted to leave , and his excuse for voting to leave like many others in Yorkshire who were fed the propaganda by Brexit campaigners that Polish and Lithuanian people were stealing their jobs , I told him if a Polish or Lithuanian who can barely speak English can win a job over You means to the Employer that you must be a crap worker to not get the job .

That’s a classic misguided remain opinion tbh. Plenty of young people (who could be arsed to get out of bed) voted leave. Plenty of older people voted remain.
People on pensions will suffer significantly in the short term because their pensions could be hit by the effects on the stock market if the doom and gloom predictions of remain come true. Younger people would have time to ride the storm.
It is certainly true that there was a demographic trend towards older people voting leave and younger people voting remain but their are many potential reasons for that. Many older people voted leave because they wanted a decent legacy for the younger generation that they felt was best served outside the eu, not because it was going to directly benefit them. They may also have more experience if real world politics and be capable of more critical evaluation rather than just believing what they get fed by teachers, the bbc, Facebook etc etc. I’ve heard young people say things like ‘the eu gave us the nhs’ ‘the eu gave us freedom’ they are completely ignorant of any kind of socio-political history or knowledge.
In this age of safe spaces and people not sure what sex they are, and going off crying to someone because they didn’t like what someone said, of an inability to actually judge if what they read online is real, of being ill prepared to face the harsh realities of life, of a pronounced lack of moral fibre and fortitude, it’s hardly surprising they wanted to cling to the safety blanket of the eu rather than make a bold step into the unknown.
Many of them can barely cope with the bold step of stepping outside their front door without holding someone’s hand.

 

[frank rabbets]

The people made a big mistake and will be staying in.

 

[goodoldboy]

just want to be rid of unelected bureaucrats telling us what we can and can't do

I've tried to be polite on this thread but I've asked this question several times - what's the difference between unaccountable politicians ruling us from London or Brussels? What exactly is sovereignty? Repeating meaningless catch phrases is at best simplistic & would seem to me that you don't really have a more sophisticated position than a dislike if other European Nations.

 

[Deleted member 13129]

That’s a classic misguided remain opinion tbh. Plenty of young people (who could be arsed to get out of bed) voted leave. Plenty of older people voted remain.
People on pensions will suffer significantly in the short term because their pensions could be hit by the effects on the stock market if the doom and gloom predictions of remain come true. Younger people would have time to ride the storm.
It is certainly true that there was a demographic trend towards older people voting leave and younger people voting remain but their are many potential reasons for that. Many older people voted leave because they wanted a decent legacy for the younger generation that they felt was best served outside the eu, not because it was going to directly benefit them. They may also have more experience if real world politics and be capable of more critical evaluation rather than just believing what they get fed by teachers, the bbc, Facebook etc etc. I’ve heard young people say things like ‘the eu gave us the nhs’ ‘the eu gave us freedom’ they are completely ignorant of any kind of socio-political history or knowledge.
In this age of safe spaces and people not sure what sex they are, and going off crying to someone because they didn’t like what someone said, of an inability to actually judge if what they read online is real, of being ill prepared to face the harsh realities of life, of a pronounced lack of moral fibre and fortitude, it’s hardly surprising they wanted to cling to the safety blanket of the eu rather than make a bold step into the unknown.
Many of them can barely cope with the bold step of stepping outside their front door without holding someone’s hand.

Even those who voted leave accept things will go down hill short term , But what makes you think long term the UK will do better , the majority of manufacturing companies that export do most to the EU , and a lot of those companies invested in the UK for that very reason of exporting tax free to the EU , if they leave the UK as well as traditional British companies that are not British owned any more , and set up shop in the EU a lot of jobs will go that wont be replaced in other manufacturing , forget the glory years of the 50s and 60s of British made goods exported all over the World , a lot of those countries are now manufacturers and exporters themselves , as you said Poland were like the Ukraine and now its like Germany , yes it receives investment and grants from the EU , but soon Poland and Romania and others that were poor will be paying in tharther than taking out as there economics improve and all that is because they joined the EU family ,

 

[Shayne]

The people made a big mistake and will be staying in.

Correct me if im wrong Frank but i think you bought your 80 brand new ? , if so that represents 20 years of frugal living and saving , its a pipe dream that can never be realized by the vast majority of Brits .

what's the difference between unaccountable politicians ruling us from London or Brussels?

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Quote Juncker the unelected drunken arrogant criminal who holds a position in the Hierarchy Britain opposed -

We all know what to do, we just don't know how to get re-elected after we've done it .

Sacking local politicians can't change policy when scum like this are ultimately in control .

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yes it receives investment and grants from the EU

And we get pointless marina and fancy waterfronts that nobody can afford to RENT in exchange for the wealthiest fishing grounds in the world given away .

 

[Chas]

what's the difference between unaccountable politicians ruling us from London or Brussels? .

It should be quite obvious that the difference is . . . . . . . . .
.
Here in the UK they can be voted out if they don't deliver what the voters want

 

[Chas]

The people made a big mistake and will be staying in.

Sorry Frank but no mistake was made on my part.

 

[Chas]

That’s a classic misguided remain opinion tbh. Plenty of young people (who could be arsed to get out of bed) voted leave. Plenty of older people voted remain.
People on pensions will suffer significantly in the short term because their pensions could be hit by the effects on the stock market if the doom and gloom predictions of remain come true. Younger people would have time to ride the storm.
It is certainly true that there was a demographic trend towards older people voting leave and younger people voting remain but their are many potential reasons for that. Many older people voted leave because they wanted a decent legacy for the younger generation that they felt was best served outside the eu, not because it was going to directly benefit them. They may also have more experience if real world politics and be capable of more critical evaluation rather than just believing what they get fed by teachers, the bbc, Facebook etc etc. I’ve heard young people say things like ‘the eu gave us the nhs’ ‘the eu gave us freedom’ they are completely ignorant of any kind of socio-political history or knowledge.
In this age of safe spaces and people not sure what sex they are, and going off crying to someone because they didn’t like what someone said, of an inability to actually judge if what they read online is real, of being ill prepared to face the harsh realities of life, of a pronounced lack of moral fibre and fortitude, it’s hardly surprising they wanted to cling to the safety blanket of the eu rather than make a bold step into the unknown.
Many of them can barely cope with the bold step of stepping outside their front door without holding someone’s hand.

Well said Mogg.

 

[leeloo]

I think your problem is with globalisation and income stagnation, it is happening all over in the developed world not only EU.
But EU is easy to blame, tough no one can quite formulate exactly how or why.
Apparently some countries inside EU do fine .
Anyway, time will tell, a hard brexit is almost unavoidable so we will see.

 

[Shayne]

Something you will not read in the wholly bias BBC but the same story was run in the Times should that make a difference to those who only follow propaganda they want to believe .

https://www.express.co.uk/news/poli...k-of-england-governor-mervyn-king-mark-carney

 

[Chas]

Apparently some countries inside EU do fine .

If they are OK with being dictated to then good luck to them.

 

[Deleted member 13129]

If they are OK with being dictated to then good luck to them.

Come on now old man , that's a bit ott , rules put out by the EU are mostly for the safety and pay rights of working peoples benefit . The days of the British empire and dictating to those countries and not having to toe the line are gone , I can not see any benefit for the UK in leaving the EU , other than far right wing groups having the feeling of glory by talking down to EU and other nationals in the street or at work .

 

[Chas]

The days of the British empire and dictating to those countries and not having to toe the line are gone.

Maybe we were wrong in those good 'ol days but now the position is reversed, we are no longer the dictators we are dictated to.

 

[Deleted member 13129]

Maybe we were wrong in those good 'ol days but now the position is reversed, we are no longer the dictators we are dictated to.

No not dictated to , but part of a group or family that decides together for all .

 

[Chas]

No not dictated to , but part of a group or family that decides together for all .

That's not the way I and many others see it. If you can't see that then you are blind.

 

[Deleted member 13129]

That's not the way I and many others see it. If you can't see that then you are blind.

No I am not blind , the UK have their fair share of representation in the EU decision making .

 

[moggy1968]

Come on now old man , that's a bit ott , rules put out by the EU are mostly for the safety and pay rights of working peoples benefit . The days of the British empire and dictating to those countries and not having to toe the line are gone , I can not see any benefit for the UK in leaving the EU , other than far right wing groups having the feeling of glory by talking down to EU and other nationals in the street or at work .

Then I don’t think you understand the real issues.
Rules put out by the eu are not mostly for the pay rights and safety of working people, something the U.K. frequently exceeds eu standards on. That is a very small percentage of EU rule making.
You, it appears, are guilty of the crass assumption many remainers are that all leave voters are nationalistic racists.

 

[moggy1968]

No I am not blind , the UK have their fair share of representation in the EU decision making .

Which the eu consistently ignores.

 

[moggy1968]

I've tried to be polite on this thread but I've asked this question several times - what's the difference between unaccountable politicians ruling us from London or Brussels? What exactly is sovereignty? Repeating meaningless catch phrases is at best simplistic & would seem to me that you don't really have a more sophisticated position than a dislike if other European Nations.

U.K. politicians are accountable to the electorate.
MEPs are of course voted for but in reality have little to no influence over eu policy making