The people have spoken

goodoldboy Nov 28, 2018

  1. MarkW

    MarkW Well-Known Member I am in morocco

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    Like many posts here it’s got absolutely nothing to do with the EU.

    The Vienna Convention is an international convention not EU. It’s up to individual signatories to decide on its application.
     
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  2. moggy1968

    moggy1968 Well-Known Member

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    Well, clearly the fact that the EU have decided to implement a requirement that almost no other country requires is an EU matter!
     
  3. MarkW

    MarkW Well-Known Member I am in morocco

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    The EU haven’t decided anything in regards to IDP’s

    While the U.K. is in the EU we come under an EU agreement that IDP’s are not required for citizens of member states travelling within the EU. As we leave on the 29th we leave that agreement and the systems reverts to IDPs for us driving abroad.
     
    froggy Steve, SimonD, grantw and 2 others like this.
  4. flint

    flint Well-Known Member Supporter I am in great_britain

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  5. moggy1968

    moggy1968 Well-Known Member

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    As I have said several times, but I will say this again for your benefit. Virtually no other country in the world has this requirement. That’s countries outside the EU, countries with which we do not have formal arrangements. We don’t need them because they regard a photo card license as adequate. There is absolutely no reason whatsoever why, deal or no deal, we should require idp’s within the EU, but the EU have stated that they MAY not recognise U.K. licenses so an international driving permit MAY be required. This is an EU decision, yet to be made, NOT a U.K. one, and not one made by most countries outside the EU.
    As you said, the EU have not made a decision on this yet, but it will be their decision, not ours.

    You may find this helpful as there are a number of other aspects to driving abroad that may need to be considered in the event of a no deal.
    https://www.gov.uk/guidance/prepare-to-drive-in-the-eu-after-brexit
     
    Last edited: Feb 5, 2019
  6. Shayne

    Shayne Well-Known Member Guru

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    Such things as driving licenses are to me just a distraction , has it escaped everyone's attention that there has never been from anywhere a single suggestion that travel will stop , that trade will stop , that immigration will stop , that anything at all will stop ?

    When all is said and done the big picture will remain very much the same , the only thing we gain from Brexit is relevant governance to this country and its inhabitants .

    All of this could have been avoided had our democratically elected leader not been forced to go cap in hand and beg his EU masters for permission to make some changes at home for fear of losing the democratic vote if he didn't .

    Democracy should give us a leader to vote for not a spokesman for the rabble with no real power or worth .
     
    Chas likes this.
  7. MarkW

    MarkW Well-Known Member I am in morocco

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    72 countries have ratified the 1968 convention, and 96 have ratified the 1949 Convention. That's a long way from "virtually no other country" as you mistakenly claim. That leaves 27 were and IDP arrangement doesn't apply.

    Where's the evidence to prove your claim that the "EU have stated they MAY not recognise UK licenses" and that this is an "EU decision"?

    The link you posted is from the UK government informing on what may be required post Brexit...……
     
  8. Rob Cowell

    Rob Cowell Well-Known Member I am in wales

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    I think some people get confused about IDP requirements because they've managed to hire a car without one and thats often the only time your paperwork is looked at. I've found car hire places are much more interested in Credit Card and Passport numbers and not been very interested in the IDP I've had. I have found (only once) the police are interested, although even then I didn't get a fine for it. But I think that's because they were more interested in recreating CHiPs than doing paperwork; welcome to Beirut.
     
    froggy Steve and MarkW like this.
  9. Rob Cowell

    Rob Cowell Well-Known Member I am in wales

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    Austrian friend sent me this this morning. I think they're rattled.

     
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  10. moggy1968

    moggy1968 Well-Known Member

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    Yes mark, strangely enough I know where the link I posted comes from. I didn’t post it to prove a point because that point shouldn’t need proving. As I stated in my post, I posted it because it has some potentially useful information on the things people may need to be aware of in the event of a no deal.
    Clearly the licensing and documentary requirements of a country or region are up to that country or region, not the U.K. government. That much at least should be stunningly obvious.
    I believe all the countries in the eu ratified the Vienna convention, so your point attempting to once again dismiss my argument on the basis of how many countries have signed up is, once again, an irrelevance.
    The Vienna convention sets down that an idp is not required if the licenses of the drivers country meet the standards of the convention, which the U.K. license does. Therefore no idp should be required.
     
    Last edited: Feb 5, 2019
  11. MarkW

    MarkW Well-Known Member I am in morocco

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    Why is it that you repeatedly make claims that the EU are responsible for whatever, yet when asked for some evidence to substantiate that claim you can't provide any? surely if there was any basis for the claim then evidence should be easy to provide?

    Spain has not ratified the 1968 Convention, hence the requirement for a 1949 IDP, whereas France has, requiring the 1968 version.

    Under the 1968 Convention an IDP is not required if the driving license contains the information set out in Article 41. However, countries can decide that they still want one, and for the most part this is down to language issues.

    You stated that the majority of countries did not require an IDP in your earlier posts, yet a quick check of the facts reveals that only 27 countries haven't ratified either Convention, that's a long way from a majority. I wasn't trying to dismiss your argument, just clarify the actual facts.
     
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  12. chadr

    chadr Well-Known Member I am in england

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    froggy Steve and MarkW like this.
  13. Rob Cowell

    Rob Cowell Well-Known Member I am in wales

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    I’m assuming you can still be checked for smuggling, just as you can be now. It’s just we won’t introduce customs declaration processing at the ports yet. The upshot being our exports will get tariffs applied, but loads of stuff will get imported without it. So still rubbish for what ever manufacturing industry we have left.
     
  14. moggy1968

    moggy1968 Well-Known Member

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    Mark, your very prone to getting bogged down in irrelevant minutae in order to try and discredit people’s opinions while ignoring the actual main points. You also misquote what they have said or take it out of context in order to suit your own point of view. Could you actually consider people’s views in their entirety rather than trying to pick it to pieces on irrelevant minutae and not obtusely misquote or deliberately misinterpret them because it’s rather tiresome. It’s very misleading and wastes a lot of time and effort.
    I did not state that the majority of countries have signed up to the agreements. I stated that
    , in reality, the majority of countries do not require an idp.
    The facts are that the idp is not required in the majority of countries. Whether they have ratified the 1949 or 1968 agreements is irrelevant, that’s the situation in practice.
    The facts are, as you have stated and as I have stated that if the information required by the convention (either the 1949 or 1968) is contained within the driving license then an idp is not required.
    The facts are that information is contained within the U.K. driving licence.
    The facts are that you continually state this is a U.K. decision not an eu one yet you state above that countries can still decide if they want an idp. You are still asking me for evidence of this, do you really need me to evidence a statement you have made?
    The facts are that should countries within the eu demand that we have an idp, that will be their choice not ours.
    As I understand it the U.K. only ratified the agreement last year, yet did not require IDPs.
    The facts are it is not required by other countries, such as Russia and Ukraine even though they don’t have the same alphabet as us, so it’s difficult to see how it is a justifiable requirement of EU countries.
    Please can you explain why you believe that the licensing, insurance and legal requirements of countries are the responsibility of the U.K. not of those countries?
    As I have also stated, but yet again you have chosen to overlook, at this moment in time we do not know exactly what the licensing, insurance and other legal requirements of eu countries will be in the event of a no deal, it’s all ifs and maybes.
     
    Last edited: Feb 5, 2019
  15. moggy1968

    moggy1968 Well-Known Member

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    No, what it’s saying is that border checks for vehicles coming into the U.K. from the eu will remain largely as they are now. The only difference being an online customs declaration.
    What happens to exports is of course not up to us.
     
  16. chadr

    chadr Well-Known Member I am in england

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    No idea on the validity of this but says that around 140 countries require an IDP, the UK being one of them.

    https://www.vehicle-rent.com/en/international-driving-permit-in-which-countries-do-you-need-It/blog/

    Also lets distinguish between a requirement and what happens in practice; I've never had to show my UK driving license to anyone in the UK, ever, in over 25 years to prove that I can drive*. However, I am in no doubt that I require one to do so.

    * though my DL comes in very useful to prove my identity in various situations, as I carry it in my wallet all the time.
     
    MarkW likes this.
  17. SimonD

    SimonD Well-Known Member I am in uk

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    Exactly Chadr - my Aussie experience is that you need them but may never show them. https://www.service.nsw.gov.au/transaction/apply-international-driving-permit-idp .
    Moggy, sorry but I'm still not getting why the EU is to blame for the UK's decision to leave resulting in IDPs back in contention.

    This is what the UK is choosing to give up by choosing to leave the EU:
    "If your driving licence is issued by an EU country, it's recognised throughout the EU. So if you move to another EU country, you won't usually have to exchange your licence."

    And the EU page https://europa.eu/youreurope/citize...ing-licence-recognition-validity/index_en.htm SPECIFICALLY STATES:
    "You need to check with the local authorities in your new country what the conditions are for recognising non-EU licences."

    It is made patently clear that the National Authorities decide [not the EU] so if you are lucky, all 27 may say "no IDP".
    Anecdotally I've seen online that the UK needed IDPs pre-1973 so anyone who voted leave should be celebrating the control they have taken back from Brussels - the right to carry an IDP! That's the pesky thing the EU got rid of...
     
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  18. MarkW

    MarkW Well-Known Member I am in morocco

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    I haven't misquoted or deliberately misinterpreted you once, you stated that this was an EU requirement and I asked where you got that information from.

    Here is the direct quote from YOUR post, not misquoted or taken out of context

    I'm not trying to discredit you just understand where you get your facts from.

    And I pointed out with a FACT, that, actually, all but 27 countries do require an IDP

    Go on then, provide that evidence, I haven't once said that IDP's are a UK decision...…………...

     
  19. flint

    flint Well-Known Member Supporter I am in great_britain

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    I suspect that what is being considered in opening the ports up to no checks is to use Inland Clearance Depots and bonded warehousing. This means that if you have a suitable sealable vehicle (TIR spec or similar), the customs clearance can take place away from the port of entry, handy at times if in a rush, sometimes used for tax avoidance. Unless these have grown in capacity massively, it'll just move the problem away from the ports, politically useful but not if you live anywhere near one.
     
  20. moggy1968

    moggy1968 Well-Known Member

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    Yes, I’ve seen that list before, it’s interesting as it contains a large number of countries that don’t, including eu ones! I think that’s because they require an idp, unless you have a photo card license.
     
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