Don't like the adverts?  Click here to remove them

The people have spoken

Lets be clear, I don't like trump, at all.
However, for those who say he's a disaster for the US economy, this is the performance graph for the USA fund in my pension for the last 12 months and the last 3 years years.
It has outperformed all my other funds by a significant margin, growing 47% since the end of December 2018



api.png
api (1).png
 
Last edited:
Bullshit, utter bullshit
Patriotism is being proud of your country and it's achievements.
It has nothing to do with ignoring the past or pretending it didn't happen.
You appear to be one of that group that appears to lack the understanding of the difference between patriotism and nationalism.
Yet again I find you attributing beliefs and ideals I don't have and haven't suggested.
Once again your just out to provoke a reaction and cause trouble. Yours was the first thread in the resurgence of this topic that resorted to being abusive and offensive to people, yet again, and you've continued in that vein. You appear incapable of maintaining any kind of discussion without it. Has it occurred to you that the backlash you experience is not due to the subject matter, but you?
my personal feelings towards you wouldn't be appropriate on this forum, so I'll keep them to myself for now and deleted much of my response.
Bullshit, utter bullshit
Patriotism is being proud of your country and it's achievements.
It has nothing to do with ignoring the past or pretending it didn't happen.
You appear to be one of that group that appears to lack the understanding of the difference between patriotism and nationalism.
Yet again I find you attributing beliefs and ideals I don't have and haven't suggested.
Once again your just out to provoke a reaction and cause trouble. Yours was the first thread in the resurgence of this topic that resorted to being abusive and offensive to people, yet again, and you've continued in that vein. You appear incapable of maintaining any kind of discussion without it. Has it occurred to you that the backlash you experience is not due to the subject matter, but you?
my personal feelings towards you wouldn't be appropriate on this forum, so I'll keep them to myself for now and deleted much of my response.
I'll ignore the insults & provocation for now so what exactly are you proud of ? What does patriotism have to do with you making lame excuses for colonialism?
I think most patriots are like football fans , uncritical support for their team.who decides what patriotism is? Currently in the USA it's Trump & any criticism of the country is unpatriotic.That's my biggest problem with patriotism , the line between nationalism is very thin & our leaders can manipulate the uncritical crowd at will - just take a look at what happened during the Falklands conflict.
 
I think patriotism is a love for your country in respect of the affinity you have to your birthplace, where you were raised. We have a more specific word in Wales that hasn't had negative connotations attached and is from a perspective of wanting to be back where we feel we belong, which could be much more than georgraphy; hiraeth. And nationalism is just a desire for self-determination. You could argue Brexit is a nationalistic concept in that respect, but that shouldn't negatively taint the idea of Brexit, it just describes an element of it.

Neither patriotism or nationalism should be negative words but they get associated with negative ideas through labels, see British National Party, National Front, etc. I would say they aren't nationalist organisations any more than the Nazis were socialists, they just like the word and think it appeals to their support.

So having said that, I don't think this is nationalism, but it does poke fun at the negative connotations in the first 2 minutes.

 
Last edited:
I'll ignore the insults & provocation for now so what exactly are you proud of ? What does patriotism have to do with you making lame excuses for colonialism?
I think most patriots are like football fans , uncritical support for their team.who decides what patriotism is? Currently in the USA it's Trump & any criticism of the country is unpatriotic.That's my biggest problem with patriotism , the line between nationalism is very thin & our leaders can manipulate the uncritical crowd at will - just take a look at what happened during the Falklands conflict.

Oh believe me I toned it down. As I said, you were the one that decided to start being insulting. You have also been persistently and consistently provocative and offensive in your posts so don’t go whining about it like a spoiled child when you get a response. Your hypocrisy Is once again truly astounding.
I really truly don’t like you, it would, as I’ve said, be inappropriate to say what I think here but I have nothing further to discuss with you, at all, ever.
Do one
 
Don't like the adverts?  Click here to remove them
Oh believe me I toned it down. As I said, you were the one that decided to start being insulting. You have also been persistently and consistently provocative and offensive in your posts so don’t go whining about it like a spoiled child when you get a response. Your hypocrisy Is once again truly astounding.
I really truly don’t like you, it would, as I’ve said, be inappropriate to say what I think here but I have nothing further to discuss with you, at all, ever.
Do one
Last time i checked this was a public forum -"anything goes as long as its above board" - not for the first time youve taken a disagreement with your point of view as a personal insult & kicked off when chalenged.I havent read through all our interactions but ive been carefull not to make thus personal just questioning your point of view.You dont have to like what i say & no one is forcing you to take part .
Ive had my differences with Shayne but weve kept it civil & through debate we ve found thing we agree on.
if anyone should "do one" from this thread its you.
 
Who cares about history , patriot , nationalist , atheist , whatever floats your boat who cares ?

If you want some self flagellation beat yourself up over that girl you called fat in school or the boy you called scruff because his parents had less money than yours , at least that might serve some purpose if you relate that shame to your kids .

We goodoldboy agree on far more than we disagree and i'm sure the same can be said about everyone regardless of what side of THIS debate they sit on .

Brexit is about the present and the future . The EU is inexorably on course for a future very few people want .

Politics and governance is corrupt - everybody knows that so it doesn't need to be discussed , wealth rules it always has and always will so why allow ourselves to be distracted by the blatantly bloody obvious ?

There is no remain option because that suggests we just leave things as is . Instead we either leave or we capitulate and surrender Britain to a power over which "we" (the population) have no control .

It doesn't matter who lies through thier teeth to get us out so long as they get us out because once we are out his/her job will be dependant on a democratic process , through democracy "workers rights" and a whole heap of other comparably insignificant (to our exit from the EU) things will be protected by the electorate .

Do remainers really want to be a part of a federal army controlled by corperate wealth who's public front is so clueless that they somehow ended up with a President nobody actually wanted :crazy:
 
If you have read my posts it should be very clear that I don't support in any way the current state of UK politics. I also don't believe I mentioned anything about a trade deal with Brazil. However, just because our own system of government is utterly broken is not a reason to be a member of an unelected, dishonest, immoral, and even more broken system full of unaccountable freeloaders, hasbeens and failed politicians making personal fortunes. A system that exists principally for the benefit of two of it's members, one that can trace it's origins, as we were talking about colonialism earlier, to France wanting to increase it's colonial power whilst reducing Britains world influence. An organisation, as you wish to push the colonial point, whose most powerful members have pretty shocking colonial histories. The EU is based entirely round a colonial ambition, and it continues to screw people from developing countries in order to further it's own rabid and disgusting greed. It destroys the livelihoods of countless millions, from African fisherman to Caribbean sugar producers, as you chose to attribute a statement to me about Brazil and sugar production that I don't believe I actually made. I don't give a shit about any of the rather muddled stuff you said about sugar, I care about the fact that the EU presents itself as a fine upstanding example or morality, while fucking over poorer countries. The EU is colonialism in a different dress.

It is through the protectionism of the EU that France has managed to continue to sustain inefficient, outdated and undeveloped business and farming practices. Don't like the subsidies for farming The queen gets? Well, talk to the French, because they are their to protect their farming interests.

No, I don't want to stay in the EU for those and other reasons. for the same reasons I want our political system to change. It is within the power of the public to do that, wheras we are powerless to do anything about the EU, except leave.

The EU is a dying force. The EU is a dying economic area. Staying saddled to it is like being handcuffed to the bridge of a sinking ship. While the EU continues to bail out water in a blind panic without realising their bucket has a massive hole in it, the rest of the world is steaming off into the sunset. I don't want to stay handcuffed to the bridge. We've got the keys so I'd like to fuck off to the lifeboats please.

The whole Western Political system is utterly broken, no leaving the EU won't fix that, but it's a step in the right direction.

Nothing you described is peculiar to the current PM and his cabinet, it's endemic throughout the political system. As i said previously, the choice (which incidentally most people didn't actually have the option to vote on) was between a dogshit sandwich and a cowshit omelette, so clearly whichever you choose the taste is going to be unpalatable. Would you rather Hunt was now PM?

You certainly do give the impression of hating pretty much everything about your' country, or are you just one of those people that has to find the negative in everything?


I’ve only made comments regarding the incompetence and corruption of the current cabinet and system of government and previous reprehensible acts carried out by our predecessors, it’s a bit of a stretch to say that’s hating pretty much everything don’t you think ? If the remain bunch can be accused of accusing leave voters of being rabid racists when often it's entirely unfounded, the leave bunch can be equally so accused of labelling those with an alternate opinion of "hating the country" it's entirely wrong and frankly insulting.
This infantile level of debate based on faux patriotism is best left to the hillbillies in the deep south, hanging out of the back of their first cousins.

I agree entirely with you on how the EU shafts the developing world and the thing about the sugar was to illustrate the point that whatever deals are done the savings aren’t going to be passed on, it’s like when crude drops from $120 a barrel to $55 yet still remains the same at The pumps.
The pound is again at a new low today and Vauxhall have announced the plant on Merseyside is at risk with potentially 1000 jobs lost.
I know it’s dismissed as “project fear” but what if in less than 100 days time the Toyota JIT model of manufacturing collapses due to supply chain bottlenecks and causes Nissan or land rover to leave ?
Are you trusting the same people who awarded a contract for a ferry company to an organisation that had no ships and lifted it business terms from a kebab shop to somehow create conditions where these people find jobs in alternate industries? They’ve had 3 years to sort this and have achieved very little.
It doesn’t inspire confidence let's face it.
 
Lets be clear, I don't like trump, at all.
However, for those who say he's a disaster for the US economy, this is the performance graph for the USA fund in my pension for the last 12 months and the last 3 years years.
It has outperformed all my other funds by a significant margin, growing 47% since the end of December 2018



View attachment 157681 View attachment 157682

I love a good graph myself too. Guess what the troughs are.
usd.JPG
 
Last time i checked this was a public forum -"anything goes as long as its above board" - not for the first time youve taken a disagreement with your point of view as a personal insult & kicked off when chalenged.I havent read through all our interactions but ive been carefull not to make thus personal just questioning your point of view.You dont have to like what i say & no one is forcing you to take part .
Ive had my differences with Shayne but weve kept it civil & through debate we ve found thing we agree on.
if anyone should "do one" from this thread its you.
This isn’t a public forum.
Read my previous
 
Last edited:
I love a good graph myself too. Guess what the troughs are.
View attachment 157707
That’s what I said before. The pound isn't doing well against the dollar because the American markets are very strong. We aren’t doing great against other markets but generally better than just after the referendum. The principle reason is the uncertainty. One way or another we have to get this sorted because the uncertainty is what’s doing the damage at the moment.
Before the referendum I said it would take 5 years minimum for the economy to recover. Sadly, 3 years later, as you say, because of all the pissing about we haven’t even started that 5 years yet.
 
Last edited:
I’ve only made comments regarding the incompetence and corruption of the current cabinet and system of government and previous reprehensible acts carried out by our predecessors, it’s a bit of a stretch to say that’s hating pretty much everything don’t you think ? If the remain bunch can be accused of accusing leave voters of being rabid racists when often it's entirely unfounded, the leave bunch can be equally so accused of labelling those with an alternate opinion of "hating the country" it's entirely wrong and frankly insulting.
This infantile level of debate based on faux patriotism is best left to the hillbillies in the deep south, hanging out of the back of their first cousins.

I agree entirely with you on how the EU shafts the developing world and the thing about the sugar was to illustrate the point that whatever deals are done the savings aren’t going to be passed on, it’s like when crude drops from $120 a barrel to $55 yet still remains the same at The pumps.
The pound is again at a new low today and Vauxhall have announced the plant on Merseyside is at risk with potentially 1000 jobs lost.
I know it’s dismissed as “project fear” but what if in less than 100 days time the Toyota JIT model of manufacturing collapses due to supply chain bottlenecks and causes Nissan or land rover to leave ?
Are you trusting the same people who awarded a contract for a ferry company to an organisation that had no ships and lifted it business terms from a kebab shop to somehow create conditions where these people find jobs in alternate industries? They’ve had 3 years to sort this and have achieved very little.
It doesn’t inspire confidence let's face it.
I agree with most of that. My comment on your negativity and view of the country wasn’t anything to do with brexit, it was in response to your very negative view of the nations past present and future, royalty, patriotism etc etc
As I’ve already said, several times, no I don’t trust those in power at all and don’t see anyone with the ability to steer us through this, so I don’t know why your asking me the question again.
 
Last edited:
I'm sitting in a cheap hotel in Calais,just drove 708 miles from Perpignan... Anyway.. I was texting a mate a few minutes ago, and he said, "hurry up and cross the UK before Boris shuts down the common travel area!"

He said it in jest, but with more bluster from Boris today about removing the backstop, I don't find it very funny any more. I have my own feelings on British patriotism and it's past, but this is today. What lurks underneath the leave squabbling is another ignorant (used in it's actual meaning) parliamentarian who is willing to ignore the most significant peace deal of the last 25 years. I know one of the men involved in brokering the Good Friday Agreement, and he has since worked with the ANC in South Africa, and recently the Iranians have sought counsel about conflict resolution. But Boris and others don't care about all of that pioneering work. Just get the Irish to go away.. another day or two and he'll be on about some technological solution that won't exist for a decade too
 
I agree with most of that. My comment on your negativity and view of the country wasn’t anything to do with brexit, it was in response to your very negative view of the nations past present and future, royalty, patriotism etc etc
As I’ve already said, several times, no I don’t trust those in power at all and don’t see anyone with the ability to steer us through this, so I don’t know why your asking me the question again.


It's all good Moggy :)
I don't think anyone trusts anyone in power to be honest. This whole subject is always fraught with contradictions on both sides. I personally didn't vote and the more time that passes I'm glad i didn't.
The political system isn't going to change in our lifetime and things that you're passionate about may mean nothing to me and vice versa.
I'd say the one thing in common on both sides is that people want the best for the country as a whole and just see different ways for that to happen.
 
It's all good Moggy :)
I don't think anyone trusts anyone in power to be honest. This whole subject is always fraught with contradictions on both sides. I personally didn't vote and the more time that passes I'm glad i didn't.
The political system isn't going to change in our lifetime and things that you're passionate about may mean nothing to me and vice versa.
I'd say the one thing in common on both sides is that people want the best for the country as a whole and just see different ways for that to happen.
:thumbup:
 
This sums things up as they stand quite well i think .

Europeans have started to change their minds on Brexit
Boris’s focus on the backstop has shifted public opinion
Christopher Caldwell


Chris-Caldwell.jpg


Christopher Caldwell

3 August 2019

9:00 AM



The conviction has been spreading among French people in recent days that les Britanniques have just elected Donald Trump. The papers are filled with meditations on British anxieties over lost empire, descriptions of Boris Johnson’s hair and the wildest speculations about what he might do as Prime Minister. Every squib about European overregulation that Johnson wrote during his stint as a Brussels correspondent for the Telegraph in the 1980s and 1990s has by now been vetted, stripped of its humorous intent and found wanting. Johnson exaggerated the threat of European regulations to prawn cocktail-flavoured crisps! Nowhere did he cite a single EU directive banning the large-sized condoms that an Englishman requires!

Though Johnson’s arrival is supposed to mark a new era in relations with the continent, EU Commission President Jean-Claude Juncker and other Brussels leaders are acting as if he has trampled on expectations. Le Figaro noted their objections, for instance, to ‘the manner in which he assembled his cabinet’. Europeans have grown so used to at least a consulting role on every continental decision, from Hungary’s immigration policy to Italy’s budget to Greece’s choice of leader, that it has become a prerogative.

Where do such attitudes come from? It is partly that most European newspaper readers and TV viewers are exposed to no pro-Brexit sentiment. Brexit gets explained to them by British people who hate it. So as Boris came to power, El País in Madrid published Timothy Garton Ash’s thoughts about how Jo Swinson betokened a ‘strange rebirth of liberal England’. The Roman daily La Repubblica obtained an exclusive interview with Tony Blair. ‘He won’t succeed in breaking the unity of the EU on Brexit,’ the former prime minister reassured readers. ‘That would be too great a humiliation for Europe.’ Blair helpfully put matters in an Italian context by saying that Johnson’s populism was more ‘dangerous’ than that of Matteo Salvini, the interior minister who leads the anti-immigration Northern League party, more dangerous even than that of Donald Trump.

By contrast, it has been underappreciated how balanced and interesting much German coverage of Brexit has been. Jochen Buchsteiner of the Frankfurter Allgemeine Zeitung wrote a short, sympathetic book last year about ‘Britain’s flight from the European utopia’. And on Tuesday the German historian Götz Aly cautioned readers against comparing Johnson and Trump: ‘A similarity in hair colour is really not sufficient grounds for judgment,’ he said. Germany, in Aly’s view, was taking Brexit in its stride, but Francophone Europe was not. For diplomats such as Frenchman Barnier and Luxembourgeois Juncker, Johnson’s resolve was reviving bad memories of Agincourt and Waterloo, and threatening their interests too. ‘If, like Luxembourg, you want to protect your own very lucrative low-tax financial sector,’ Aly wrote, ‘you’re not going to be too upset about difficulties for the competition in London’.

In Johnson’s first days in power, Europeans were chuckling at his declared willingness to pursue a no-deal Brexit. They were certain he was bluffing. ‘Listen, Johnson is not a kamikaze,’ wrote La Repubblica correspondent Antonello Guerrera. ‘This the Trump tactic of attack-and-negotiate.’ But this view has not survived early polls which show a Johnson bounce.

Two things, basically, have begun to change Europeans’ minds. The first is the way Johnson has staffed his government — at every level. It is not just his choice of Dominic Cummings to manage Brexit itself. It is also the promise to parliament that ‘under no circumstances’ will Johnson appoint a new UK commissioner to the European Union. This is a burning of ships. So is the promise to hire 20,000 police, who will (Johnson proposes) be empowered to practise stop and search, which has been anathema to the EU Court of Justice.





It is Cummings, however, who has caught the imagination of European journalists. For Dagens Nyheter, Sweden’s bien pensant paper of record, his hiring is evidence that Johnson is ‘making a high-stakes gamble with the future of his country’. It was Cummings who organised the Vote Leave campaign around ‘negative messages’ such as — just imagine — ‘anger with the EU’. The leftist Paris daily Libération, meanwhile, blames Cummings for a highly complicated strategy of rejecting the Irish backstop negotiated between civil servants and Barnier, in order to produce a ‘pseudo-intransigeance’ on the part of Europe that would be used as a pretext for a no-deal Brexit.

It is, of course, much simpler than that. But at least now we are at the heart of the issue. For all their fascination with Brexit, continental Europeans have no time for the nitty-gritty. Juncker and Barnier might be counting on a £39 billion ‘divorce payment’, but the average Parisian or Berliner doesn’t know what it’s about, beyond Boris’s hair.

That is changing. Since Johnson’s arrival the backstop has moved to the centre of Europe’s understanding of the process. Until now, continental Europeans understood the backstop in a formulaic, pro-EU way. The Milanese daily Corriere della Sera has a London correspondent, but it chose to focus on Dublin, to which the EU’s mission civilisatrice has thankfully brought ‘abortion, divorce and same-sex marriage’. Its correspondent asked the essayist Fintan O’Toole about the border’s devilish complexity: ‘There are 280 almost invisible border crossings between Ireland and the North,’ O’Toole explained. ‘What will happen if we don’t find an acceptable solution?’ One might respond that, if the crossings are ‘almost invisible’, there won’t be much to solve, since there’s not likely to be much movement of people or goods through them.

Johnson had an even better tack. In his first Westminster address he reframed what the backstop was: ‘No country that values its independence and, indeed, its self-respect could agree to a treaty that signed away our economic independence and self-government, as this backstop does.’ Self-respect is exactly right. The backstop is not the only problem with the withdrawal agreement, but to foreigners, it was the part that stuck out like a sore thumb. How could any country agree to that? It was more than a concession. It was a humiliation. It required Britain to surrender political control over parts of its territory in ways it could not recover — ever — unless the EU gave permission. It left Britain with less sovereignty than it had before it voted for independence.

The moment that was admitted, the backstop could not possibly remain. The whole logic of it broke down. Now, suddenly, it was the Irish prime minister Leo Varadkar who was under pressure. Is the EU going to demand sacrifices from its member countries to push an illogical plan that only one of its tiniest countries wants? Actually, does Ireland want the backstop? Does it want to risk cutting off its second-largest export market? Estimates are that a no-deal Brexit would cost the Irish three points of GDP. In a poll for Dublin’s Sunday Independent, fewer than half of Irish people were ‘satisfied’ with Varadkar’s strategy on Brexit.

Varadkar warned that a no-deal Brexit would make Irish unification more likely. On the same principle you could just as easily argue it would lead to British unification. The common thread of everything Ireland has done in the past ten years has been to leave behind its paired obsessions of national unity and national culture. Clearly Ireland now wishes to be brought under the moral tutelage of more modern, more secular, more capitalistic powers. London is a more logical and convenient choice for that role than Brussels. This would require forgetting a lot of history, but of course forgetting history is what ‘European values’ are all about.

Johnson’s first week has clarified what the past three years have meant. Brexit negotiations under Theresa May were intended to short-circuit Brexit. Wolfgang Münchau of the Financial Times looks to be correct when he says that May’s end run of the Brexiteers in her own party was, in effect, the best chance Remainers were going to get. ‘Remainers should have taken the deal,’ he wrote on Monday. ‘It would have ensured a close relationship with the EU while keeping the option of re-joining in the future open. A no-deal Brexit closes it for a generation.’

Brexiteers felt betrayed and misled by May. Her power to negotiate came from the mandate in the Brexit referendum, which she misinterpreted. She misrepresented to the public what she was agreeing to with Barnier. She opted for the backstop to lock her citizens into something they would never have consented to.

And now the Europeans have reason to feel led astray, too. Had May resisted the European hardliners, as a normal adversarial negotiator would have done, a compromise might have resulted that would have won approval in Westminster.

But by getting pulled all the way over to the EU side, she left everyone in a new position. For her own countrymen, a situation where leaving lock, stock and barrel became the most sensible-looking way to honour the referendum. For the EU, a confrontation summed up best not by Boris Johnson but by Iain Duncan Smith: ‘The days of supplication are over.’
 
It's all good Moggy :)
I don't think anyone trusts anyone in power to be honest. This whole subject is always fraught with contradictions on both sides. I personally didn't vote and the more time that passes I'm glad i didn't.
The political system isn't going to change in our lifetime and things that you're passionate about may mean nothing to me and vice versa.
I'd say the one thing in common on both sides is that people want the best for the country as a whole and just see different ways for that to happen.


Did you see George Clarke’s thing on council housing the other night?
Really quite shocking
 
Back
Top